Auschwitz To Be Updated

[The Question]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061205/ap_on_re_eu/auschwitz_renovation

Death camp site to be renovated
By VANESSA GERA, Associated Press Writer Tue Dec 5, 4:31 PM ET


WARSAW, Poland - The International Auschwitz Council agreed Tuesday to modernize a 51-year-old exhibition at the site of the Nazi death camp and build walls to prevent the ruins of gas chambers from sinking into the ground.
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The decision to renovate and preserve remains of the vast Nazi death camp in southern Poland marks a change in the long-standing approach to maintaining the site, which has been left as the Allies found it when they liberated the camp at the end of World War II.
But two of the gas chambers are slowly sinking into the ground and will likely slide out of sight within the next two decades if nothing is done. How to save them prompted debate on the council, with a majority favoring a Polish expert's proposal to halt the erosion by building walls sunk into the ground on either side of the slipping chambers.
"We have to preserve without reconstruction," said Piotr Cywinski, the new director of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial and Museum. He warned that doing nothing is tantamount to letting history slip away: "We must decide to do this if we want to be able to see these gas chambers in 20 years."
However, one council member said international engineering experts should be consulted first to avoid opening up the Auschwitz administrators to accusations of "tampering with the gas chambers," said Jonathan Webber, a professor of Jewish Studies at the University of Birmingham.
The council also backed a proposal to renovate an aging exhibition dating back to the early years of communist rule in Poland.
Cywinski said the exhibition, in austere barracks at the sprawling complex, has become old-fashioned compared to modern museums like Yad Vashem in Israel and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.
It is "the oldest exhibition about the Shoah (Holocaust) in the world," Cywinski said on the sidelines of the daylong council meeting in Warsaw. "We really must change."
Some Holocaust survivors in Israel fear modernization could make the camp seem more like a museum and damage the somberness of the site where nearly 1.5 million people, most of them Jews, were slaughtered by the Nazis.
Cywinski said no changes would be made to the remaining crematoria, barracks and watchtowers, and he pledged to keep the powerful exhibits of hair, glasses and other personal belongings that were stripped from victims.
Possible changes include building an educational center and introducing audioguide tours — though Cywinski promised the place would not become "technological or multimedia."
Several Nazi camp sites, including Bergen-Belsen, have received makeovers, which experts say is part of a trend to make them more attractive for tourists. Some feel similar renovations at Auschwitz will to make the Nazi's largest camp seem less foreboding.
The council — a committee made up of Holocaust survivors, scholars and religious leaders — has strong influence on what happens at the site. The site is administered by a group of Polish-government appointed officials.

Pop quiz: Why do buildings sink into the ground?

 

[Starship Coyote]

A shallow water table underneath... not that far down? Thus precluding burying bodies, ashes, or large amounts of chemicals released into the environment? Just an educated guess.

 

[The Question]

Head of the class.

 

[jack]

It must be part of a vast Jewish Conspiracy to be sure that the false Holocaust Theory stays in place for at least another 20 years.

How many months til the last survivor dies? They have to all be in their 80's by now, the kids I mean, right?

 

[The Question]

Well, we could joke about conspiracies in order to cover up slips like this. On the other hand, we could indulge in one of the most popular trends of the 1990s/2000s -- blame the parents. They lied, we were just being loving children. Gosh, sorry about all that.

It's pretty hard to maintain a lie and advertise such a clear sign of the truth at the same time, though.

 

[Starship Coyote]

It must be part of a vast Jewish Conspiracy to be sure that the false Holocaust Theory stays in place for at least another 20 years.

If there's money to be made, the Jew will stoop to any low.

How many months til the last survivor dies? They have to all be in their 80's by now, the kids I mean, right?

It's my understanding that there are more alledged holocaust survivors alive now than at any previous time... something like 1 out of every 3 Jews in NYC claims to be a survivor, so I'd guesstimate it will be quite some time before they're all deceased. Oh, where did I get those numbers? I dunno, somewhere sometime back.

Unlike TQ, I don't refute the existence of a Nazi "Final Solution." I personally doubt 5.5 million Jews and 5.5 assorted others were systematically eliminated... the number is probably much lower, and that's a crying shame.

(Incidentally, this isn't a troll... I stand by what I just stated.)

 

[The Question]

I don't refute the existence of a "Final Solution", either. But like you, I doubt that any "Final Solution" included systematically murdering 5.5 million Jews. So if that wasn't the "Final Solution", something else was -- that something else, in my opinion, was intended to be deportation. That went TARFU while in progress, which is where you get the deaths that did happen.

 

[The Question]

Interesting note: Not only can't you cremate bodies to ash in open air, you can't cremate them to ash in open water, either.

 

[Starship Coyote]

Another interesting note: of all the eyewitness accounts of inmates helping dispose of bodies, I've yet to hear a single one make note to two very prominent side effects of cremation: the corpse screaming as superheated air escapes its lungs, and the rigorous jerking of the corpse as the water in its muscles evaporates. Not a single report, and you'd remember things like that. I did.

 

[jack]

I know, it's mind-bogglling. Close to 4700 a day would have had to have been gassed or otherwise exterminated to exact that toll of numbers.

It's interesting how neither of you have mentioned punchcard science in this little efficiency discussion

You probably haven't read too much about it, because it's a pretty closely held and guarded secret, by one of the biggest corporations in the world.

Refuting the enormity of the genocide is certainly reasonable. Any sane person would do that when confronted with such horror.

I'll bet there are less than a handful of the actual Auschwitz Runners still alive. Now, there are some folks who are less hysterical than some of the ones you wave like so many flags, who were actually there, and who actually know what happened.

As opposed to speculation, I enjoy the information I get from the authentic (not made up) sources. You know, by people who were actually there, not ones that lie hysterically about it.

The average current survivor age is 77.2 btw statistically. Average survivor death age is somewhere around 67 (plus or minus...it ends in 2002)

Like I said, there aren't many left. And the ones that were actually there that got to leave the camp every day and return have an entirely different story to tell than the one the Conspiracy hopes you'll swallow.

I support your intelligence in questioning the veracity of such horror. It's interesting that in all of this you skip the Allies first impressions (by film) of the camps.

1 hour 17 minutes at 1100 degrees to ash a body. No one mentions the "grinders" either. If they weren't grinding the final chunks out of the ovens (because of the volume, right?) since they were disposing of the Typhus victims in that way supposedly, then why did they need all those bone grinders?

I have the authentic gas chamber volume data somewhere. It was just released this year, btw.

 

[The Question]

I know, it's mind-bogglling. Close to 4700 a day would have had to have been gassed or otherwise exterminated to exact that toll of numbers.

It's interesting how neither of you have mentioned punchcard science in this little efficiency discussion

We've been over that, Jack. And over and over it. I'll tell you now what I told ya then: None of the punch cards say anything about murdering anybody (you've conceded this already in the previous discussion, by the way) and without that, you might as well try to use a Sears catalogue to try to prove criminal intent in every power tool accident in the U.S.

You probably haven't read too much about it, because it's a pretty closely held and guarded secret, by one of the biggest corporations in the world.

I've read a lot about it, as a matter of fact, because you've tried to play this card before. IBM collaborated with the Nazis by selling them the information system they used to classify and organize "undesirables." But "classify and organize" still doesn't = "systematically murder" and never will. It certainly covers the "systematically" portion, just doesn't cover the "murder" part.

Refuting the enormity of the genocide is certainly reasonable. Any sane person would do that when confronted with such horror.

I'll bet there are less than a handful of the actual Auschwitz Runners still alive. Now, there are some folks who are less hysterical than some of the ones you wave like so many flags, who were actually there, and who actually know what happened.

But it seems like only the hysterical ones ever get mentioned by either side of the discussion. Maybe because they don't corroborate the hysterical story.

As opposed to speculation, I enjoy the information I get from the authentic (not made up) sources. You know, by people who were actually there, not ones that lie hysterically about it.

The average current survivor age is 77.2 btw statistically. Average survivor death age is somewhere around 67 (plus or minus...it ends in 2002)

And yet here we are with more survivors than there statistically ought to be.

Like I said, there aren't many left. And the ones that were actually there that got to leave the camp every day and return have an entirely different story to tell than the one the Conspiracy hopes you'll swallow.

I support your intelligence in questioning the veracity of such horror. It's interesting that in all of this you skip the Allies first impressions (by film) of the camps.

Two reasons for that:

1. The Americans liberated camps on German soil. Interestingly, it's no longer claimed by the hysterical that the camps on German soil were extermination camps. Reason: They can't support such claims, so they've abandoned any further attempts to make such claims.

2. The camps on Polish soil were liberated by the Soviets. The Soviets lied through their teeth as a matter of state policy.

1 hour 17 minutes at 1100 degrees to ash a body. No one mentions the "grinders" either. If they weren't grinding the final chunks out of the ovens (because of the volume, right?) since they were disposing of the Typhus victims in that way supposedly, then why did they need all those bone grinders?

How many bone grinders did they actually have?

I have the authentic gas chamber volume data somewhere. It was just released this year, btw.

Why was it just released this year? Why did it take so long to come up with a number if they've supposedly had these things (or even one) to walk into and take measurements?

 

[jack]

They were in the sealed archives that were finally just allowed to be opened. This past august.

There were supposedly two in each crematoria. I'm just surprised that info has been so readily overlooked by everybody. They did use the ovens to incinerate bodies (I wont argue about why) it takes an hour and a half to reduce a 150 lb avg corpse to ashes, but there's quite a bit or "chaff" that has to be pulverized, or it defeats the purpose of "typhus burning".

Surprising, that little omission.

 

[jack]

I never bothered to research Typhus transmission either. I'm curious as to its motility, considering the contact the feeders had with the bodies. Because there isnt a single documented case of feeders developing Typhus at all.

 

[The Question]

They were in the sealed archives that were finally just allowed to be opened. This past august.

There were supposedly two in each crematoria. I'm just surprised that info has been so readily overlooked by everybody. They did use the ovens to incinerate bodies (I wont argue about why) it takes an hour and a half to reduce a 150 lb avg corpse to ashes, but there's quite a bit or "chaff" that has to be pulverized, or it defeats the purpose of "typhus burning".

Surprising, that little omission.

So some questions crop up: If there were supposed to be two gas chambers to every crematorium, there should have been a number of surviving gas chambers -- authentic ones, not artists' renderings or (really, horribly non-credible) "gas chamber doors" or recreations in Auschwitz. There should've been no need for the Polish Communists to "reconstruct" anything.

With the cremation timeframes and requirements, as they apply to equipment built specifically for the purpose, it becomes even more unlikely that open-air body disposal took place as described. And that's if we leave out entirely the little problem of a water table so near the surface that it's sucking the reconstructed buildings into the earth. Burning bodies in ditches 3m deep would have meant burning bodies in ditches full of water.

 

[Cranky Bastard]

Hmm.

Hitler did have an inordinate fascination with sending the Jews to Madagascar. If his intent was to kill them, why would he waste time planning shipping out of France when those bases opened up in 1940?

 

[jack]

Dan's questions are spot on.

I think the trains were involved with transporting large numbers of bodies too.