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Good Guy -vs- Nice Guy...

Volpone

Zombie Hunter
OK. I have a struggle in life. I try to be a Good Guy. But too often I wind up being a Nice Guy instead.

And there's a difference. A big one. Ideally a Good Guy gets to be nice. But sometimes he has to be a dick. Sometimes he has to stand up and do something unpleasant or offend people if it means doing the right thing. In my experience, a lot of the time Good Guys can rub you the wrong way at first. But ultimately you come to respect them.

Conversely, everyone likes a Nice Guy at first. But when push comes to shove and they need to stand up for something, Nice Guys will take the easy way out. They don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, so they won't point out something unpleasant or unpopular. Eventually, this can make people lose respect for the Nice Guy. And the only people who really like him are the ones who know they can take advantage of him.

Now it ain't black and white. You can be a little of both. And I may be a bit hard on myself, but I think I need to stand up for the unpleasant/unpopular more often. How about you? Is it better to be a Nice Guy or a Good Guy? Where are you? Or are you evil? ;)
 
I don't think there is a best choice for all situations. For example, say your girlfriend comes out in a new dress and says, "honey, do I look fat in this?" Well, if cellulite bumps are showing through the fabric and you let her go out in public wearing that and somebody films her butt jiggling up broadway and puts it on Youtube, she is going to be mighty pissed at you for being a nice guy and not giving her an honest answer. So, it would be better to be brutally honest with her in that situation and say, "You are too damned sexy in that. No way are you wearing that out of the house."
 
The struggles you have between these two ideals are due to the fact that they have entirely different goal sets in mind. The Good Guy is by nature a person who "does the right thing" in every possible circumstance, but "the right thing" is not only very personally defined for each of us, it also tends to be a thankless job when you have to stick to your principles. The Right Thing is almost always the Hardest Thing to do, especially if it hurts people you love or paints you as an asshole. The Good Guy cannot be too concerned with how others perceive him if that is his goal, because the Good Guy is often unpopular in his own time and only earns the Good Guy label long after the fact.

See Harry Truman, Abe Lincoln, or Martin Luther King as good examples of this. All are currently known as principled, honest men who "did the right thing." One was despised when he left office, the other two went home in boxes after severe bouts with lead poisoning.

Conversely, the "Nice Guy" wants to be well-liked, and this involves doing the popular thing, even if it isn't always the right or even fair decision. Nice Guys are the ones who often find themselves doing other peoples' homework or paying some girl's rent so she can bring her real boyfriends home to screw. It is the nature of the world to abuse the good-hearted person.

My advice is that you have a nice long talk with the one person you REALLY have to please: the guy you look at every morning in the mirror. Get an idea of what that guy wants, what's important to you and go get it, and stop worrying about whether people like you. Half of them will hate you no matter what you do, another third will wait to see what they can get from you, and if you're lucky you'll get two or three really special relationships that last a lifetime. The rest will fade in and out of your life with little consequence, but the guy in the mirror? Him you're stuck with.

So make him happy first...
 
Well besides myself, I'm interested in pleasing one other person on the planet, and that would be my wife. So I'll do anything to see her smile.

I don't know about "good guy" or "nice guy"; irl I stopped being dishonest as a scruple years ago, and sometimes that can have brutal consequences, in which case I'm neither a Nice Guy or a Good Guy.
 
This is a tribute to the nice guys. The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends, that endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are, while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs, those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores. This is in honor of the guys that obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy their female friends are at the appropriate moment, because they know most girls need that litany of support. This is in honor of the guys with open minds, with laid-back attitudes, with honest concern. This is in honor of the guys who respect a girl’s every facet, from her privacy to her theology to her clothing style.

This is for the guys who escort their drunk, bewildered female friends back from parties and never take advantage once they’re at her door, for the guys who accompany girls to bars as buffers against the rest of the creepy male population, for the guys who know a girl is fishing for compliments but give them out anyway, for the guys who always play by the rules in a game where the rules favor cheaters, for the guys who are accredited as boyfriend material but somehow don’t end up being boyfriends, for all the nice guys who are overlooked, underestimated, and unappreciated, for all the nice guys who are manipulated, misled, and unjustly abandoned, this is for you.

This is for that time she left 40 urgent messages on your cell phone, and when you called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner. And even though you thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, you assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it. This is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor. This is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.

The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should. And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can’t. From what I have observed on campus and what I have learned from talking to friends at other schools and in the workplace, the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches. Many of them claim they just want to date a nice guy, but when presented with such a specimen, they say irrational, confusing things such as “oh, he’s too nice to date” or “he would be a good boyfriend but he’s not for me” or “he already puts up with so much from me, I couldn’t possibly ask him out!” or the most frustrating of all: “no, it would ruin our friendship.” Yet, they continue to lament the lack of datable men in the world, and they expect their too-nice-to-date male friends to sympathize and apologize for the men that are jerks. Sorry, guys, girls like that are beyond my ability to fathom. I can’t figure out why the connection breaks down between what they say (I want a nice guy!) and what they do (I’m going to sleep with this complete ass now!). But one thing I can do, is say that the nice-guy-finishes-last phenomenon doesn’t last forever. There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier, finding the ones that are single.

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all the nice guys. You know who you are, and I know you’re sick of hearing yourself described as ubiquitously nice. But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile. For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations where you are the faceless, nameless hero, my accolades, my acknowledgement, and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming.

Fu-zu Jen, SEAS/WH, 2003

.
 
The biggest problem with being a "nice guy" is that you're ultimately a people pleaser and it can come across as wimpish in extreme cases. And women are not attracted to wimps.

If you find yourself falling into that trap put on the brakes. There is nothing wrong with ego in small doses and even moderate arrogance is sometimes the order of the day.

It's all about confidence. Don't turn into someone that is at everyone else's beckon call because it is not something that instills respect in others.

And at the same time don't turn into a dick. You can be a great guy who is supportive and charismatic without forgetting about what you want to do. Sometimes you have to let others deal with their own trivial problems and take care of your own interests first.

When I exchange numbers with a girl I make HER call me. I never fucking call them. If they want to hang out then they can call me and I'll tell them if I'm available. And no, I'm not always available. (Even if I really am and I really like her.)

That's just a small example.

You have to play the game and deprogram some things that seem logically sound. Because logic can screw you over more often than not when you're dealing with illogical and emotionally driven human beings.

Women get hit on all the time. ALL THE TIME. Don't turn into another puppy dog throwing flowers at her feet and nipping at her heels because for some strange reason and despite what they say they don't find it endearing or cute.

Get a personality and remember this very important lesson:

People are lucky to be hanging out with you. Not the other way around.
 
I started out a nice guy, but after being kicked around by women who weren't even decent in any way I changed that shit.

When dealing with females I think being a "nice guy" and being a "good guy" comes down to one thing. A woman feels like she can have the "nice guy" any time she wants him. That's the only thing that makes them not want you, period. There's no challenge in that for them, and plus that kind of acts like a security blanket for their ego. Knowing they can have this "sweet guy" anytime they want him. So once you reach nice guy status with a chick you want to put your penis in forgetaboutit. Most likely it ain't happening. Once they call you sweet, its over. Unless you hear that after you've already started dating them.


Its what I try to tell my unconfident teenage cousin who wonders why he can't even get the mediocre broads. You're her keychain on her car keys. Her purse. The thing that's always there so no need to give it special attention. No need to notice you. You're a chick with a dick. If you see a girl you wanna rub parts with you simply ignore them sometimes, be friendly sometimes, occasionally slip into the crying shoulder, and always be confident. Avoid them for short periods of time. That way when they wonder what you've been up to THEY'RE ACTUALLY CURIOUS. And always, make them say hi to you first. Stupid rules, but that's just how it goes.

Be a "nice guy" 85-100% of the time to the women you never want to sleep with. That way you'll have some friends, AND they'll have some dude around to stroke their egos. Win-win. As far as interaction with dudes,and shit just treat them as they treat you. And, always, when encountering new people start with a nod, and a smile.
 
OK, this thread made me think so much that I actually took it in to active practice in the field.

Now, I'm not blowing my own trumpet or anything but I don't have a huge problem picking up women. I'm usually the hottest guy in the group and I know how to get girls so I usually do.


Since I got laid yesterday I wasn't in any great desperate need to do so tonight, so with this thread in mind, when it came down to three guys (including me) and one girl I thought "why the hell not, let me revert to the nice guy image that comes so naturally and see if I can get laid."


OK, to be fair I wasn't really that interested in her. She was definitely fuckable though and I wouldn't have turned it down.

But in the name of research I decided to drop my usual routine and just be a really nice guy for the entire night. So, me versus two other guys and her being the target.

I bought her drinks, I opened doors to her, when she lost her jacket in another bar I offered to run and fetch it for her (all shit I NEVER do usually) and guess what...


One guy left and it was just me, her and another guy. She asked me where I lived and I told her it wasn't far. Then I offered her a lift home.



She seemed interested but in the name of research I didn't step on any toes when the other guy offered her a lift home on his bike (figure it out yourself.)


I graciously shook his hand and kissed her goodnight.

She went back with him. Even though she was blatantly more interested in me.



Amazing, eh?


Never let it be said I don't put in the effort for this board. I've just proved the fact that nice guys finish last to a fault. All because this thread reminded me of myself a number of years ago.


I lost.


And all because I didn't act in a way that I usually do. A way that actually feels false and manipulative but gets results. I just acted like the nice guy. Sure I flirted and I made it clear 'indirectly' that I was interested but I pursued the nice guy image to the final moment.


And the idiot who was "against me" bagged her. Lucky for him I was carrying out an experiment for the sake of this thread otherwise he would have had no chance. Again, not bragging but just being honest.


I had the opportunity to check the "nice guy curse" out with a girl I wasn't marjory interested in but could of had anyway. If I had been heavily in to her then fuck TK I wouldn't have bothered trying to sabotage myself but in this case I wasn't bothered. I found the learning experience interesting.

I could of snatched this girl away multiple times but I continued with the "more natural" nice guy image and it failed for me in every way.

Ultimatley I'm twenty Euros down from buying her drinks and some other guy is fucking her!

Yep, no wonder nice guys turn bitter.

What can we learn from this?



Women are idiots.



I thank you.
 
Oh, please, talk about delusional. You divide women into those you would fuck and those you would not then whine that nice guys finish last. When the ultimate goal is nothing more than casual sex then what you get are players. Players aren't nice, they are shallow. They are hung up on what suits their personal fleeting need of the moment - a shiney car, big boobs, a short skirt, a wallet full of cash and credit, envy from their peers because they've "bagged" some idolized specimen of the sexual preference. Those are insubstantial things, transient and unsatisfying over the long haul. If that is what you are willing to settle for, then don't kid yourself that you are nice or even good, you are simply hoping for rebound sex.
 
I think being a "nice guy" by your definition involves a bit of a lack of self esteem. Speaking as a woman I find "nice guys" as you describe them pathetic and the women who use them whores. Then I also feel sorry for the "nice guy". How sad that you do what people ask of you because you seemingly want to be liked, I mean why else would you do it?

Mentalist is right, men with a bit of a cocky arrogance is a huge turn on. It shows women you are strong protectors not doormats bending every which way to avoid conflict.
 
Mentalist said:
Since I got laid yesterday I wasn't in any great desperate need to do so tonight, so with this thread in mind, when it came down to three guys (including me) and one girl I thought "why the hell not, let me revert to the nice guy image that comes so naturally and see if I can get laid."

I am so lucky that I have the mother I have and a brain in my head. I can't tell you how many times "Alpha Male" decided he could be super sweet enough to get in my knickers because as you said, women are idiots.

Ten free drinks later and a round for my gorgoeus friends and oooops, that was supposed to be a 5 in my phone number, not a 7...What an idiot I am. ;)

A few guys would ask to see my cell so they could be sure they got the right number but because men are such geniuses they took me at my word that the phone I had on me that night was my friend's and he couldn't have her number, "Sorry sexy, you're aaaallll mine." Yeah, men are brilliant.
 
eloisel said:
Oh, please, talk about delusional. You divide women into those you would fuck and those you would not then whine that nice guys finish last. When the ultimate goal is nothing more than casual sex then what you get are players. Players aren't nice, they are shallow. They are hung up on what suits their personal fleeting need of the moment - a shiney car, big boobs, a short skirt, a wallet full of cash and credit, envy from their peers because they've "bagged" some idolized specimen of the sexual preference. Those are insubstantial things, transient and unsatisfying over the long haul. If that is what you are willing to settle for, then don't kid yourself that you are nice or even good, you are simply hoping for rebound sex.

Almost insightful except you're banging on as if there is some hidden agenda at work on the side of the man. There isn't. Casual sex is usually sought after from both sides of the table in my experience. So enough with the platitudes. And let's be honest, women do the exact same thing. I'm 23, of course I'm a fucking player. I don't want a relationship with every bit of skirt I meet. And neither do they. I'm sorry but I'm not going to buy into some male chauvinist agenda that is taking advantage of these poor defenseless saps. That's frankly ridiculous. Fun is fun and when it's mutual I don't see a damn thing wrong with it. In fact if there is anything deceptive going on it's the fact that being yourself is often not what's required to play the game.


I was merely interested in the attraction process. And the attraction process favours those who are more often than not twats. I grant you, that's a generalization but it's an interesting truth.

Now, you don't have to be a twat. Self-confidence and an assertive nature are turn-on's for a woman. And you can definitely have those traits and be a decent person as well. But the amazing thing is that you can be a complete jerk and women still prefer it to someone who is friendly and amiable but maybe a tad insecure and unsure of themselves but still giving it their best shot.

Maybe not instantly attractive but surely it's better than the complete jerks that will treat women like shit over and over and over again and have them running back on their hands and knees begging to be stamped on all over again?

Girl power!

I don't have such personality requisites when it comes to the opposite sex. And what was that about being shallow?
 
eloisel said:
Oh, please, talk about delusional. You divide women into those you would fuck and those you would not then whine that nice guys finish last. When the ultimate goal is nothing more than casual sex then what you get are players. Players aren't nice, they are shallow. They are hung up on what suits their personal fleeting need of the moment - a shiney car, big boobs, a short skirt, a wallet full of cash and credit, envy from their peers because they've "bagged" some idolized specimen of the sexual preference. Those are insubstantial things, transient and unsatisfying over the long haul. If that is what you are willing to settle for, then don't kid yourself that you are nice or even good, you are simply hoping for rebound sex.

:pop:
 
I don't date women, I haven't for almost thirty years, but it sure is fun to watch.
 
jack said:
I'm neither a Nice Guy or a Good Guy.

More of a small guy, really; a small guy who likes to imagine that he looks like John Malkovich, but who actually looks like the guy from the old Dunkin Donuts TV spots.
 
Mentalist said:
Almost insightful except you're banging on as if there is some hidden agenda at work on the side of the man. There isn't. Casual sex is usually sought after from both sides of the table in my experience. So enough with the platitudes. And let's be honest, women do the exact same thing. I'm 23, of course I'm a fucking player. I don't want a relationship with every bit of skirt I meet. And neither do they. I'm sorry but I'm not going to buy into some male chauvinist agenda that is taking advantage of these poor defenseless saps. That's frankly ridiculous. Fun is fun and when it's mutual I don't see a damn thing wrong with it. In fact if there is anything deceptive going on it's the fact that being yourself is often not what's required to play the game.


I was merely interested in the attraction process. And the attraction process favours those who are more often than not twats. I grant you, that's a generalization but it's an interesting truth.

Now, you don't have to be a twat. Self-confidence and an assertive nature are turn-on's for a woman. And you can definitely have those traits and be a decent person as well. But the amazing thing is that you can be a complete jerk and women still prefer it to someone who is friendly and amiable but maybe a tad insecure and unsure of themselves but still giving it their best shot.

Maybe not instantly attractive but surely it's better than the complete jerks that will treat women like shit over and over and over again and have them running back on their hands and knees begging to be stamped on all over again?

Girl power!

I don't have such personality requisites when it comes to the opposite sex. And what was that about being shallow?

I think women find men who think like they do sexy. If a man just finds the woman a pleasure to be with, he can have that pleasure be pretty much whatever he wants.

Although I have been completely monogamous, I love to flirt, and attraction can be a powerful energetic component to interpersonal relationship.

I think having sex with a woman is probably the most natural thing you can do with her. I don't see what the big deal is, really.
 
I Ain't No Nice Guy

When I was young I was the nicest guy I knew
I thought I was the chosen one
But time went by and I found out a thing or two
My shine wore off as time wore on
I thought that I was living out the perfect life
But in the lonely hours when the truth begins to bite
I thought about the times when I turned my back & stalled

I ain't no nice guy after all

When I was young I was the only game in town
I thought I had it down for sure,
But time went by and I was lost in what I found
The reasons blurred, the way unsure
I thought that I was living life the only way
But as I saw that life was more than day to day
I turned around, I read the writing on the wall

I ain't no nice guy after all
I ain't no nice guy after all

In all the years you spend between your birth and death
You find there's lots of times you should have saved your breath
It comes as quite a shock when that trip leads to fall

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