Health Care ethics (eloisel,Sarek and others)

[missmanners]

Health care – Free across the board. And lock up the fat cat CEO’s from the pharmaceutical companies. I agree with missmanners 95% on this issue. However, there is making a profit and making a profit. When my sister was dieing of cancer, one of the medications she was on was a single shot that cost $10,000. That is insane.

This is a tough one. I tried to do some research on these high cost shots. And from what I read, it's going to be hard to discuss without crossing over from economic issues to those of ethics and of course emotions.

Did the shot save your sisters life? If no, was there a chance it would have saved her life? If yes, then what is your sisters life worth? And so on.

I can remember seeing a poster about 5 years ago in the ICU about how 90% of all medical resources in the USA are used in the last 10 days of a person's life. I've tried to research to verify this and after an hour or so gave up.
So it's probably exagerated, but not by that much. A LOT of money is spent on extending life for terminal cases. If health care is free for everyone, that still means limited resources... there are only so many hospitals, nurses, equipment, etc to go around. How will it be decided who gets first shot at the resources? Does the bed go to a 60 year old alcoholic with a failing liver or a young mother with terminal cancer?

And as far as drug companies... if you own mutual funds, or have some sort of retirement account, there is a good chance you are invested in more than one drug company. Where will funding come from for R&D? Does this mean everyones taxes will increase? If the USA is no longer the leader in helath care innovation, who will be? China?

I really believe that free health care = poor health care.


mm

 

[Friday]

Bah. If you don't have insurance in this country, your healthcare is poor anyway, mm. I basically have to wait 6 weeks for a consultation to receive a procedure that my doctor has labelled urgent. Meanwhile, I'm taking a heavy narcotic just to stay ahead of the pain. Why? I'm at the bottom of the list because at the present time I'm without insurance.

Right now, I'm so disgusted with the healthcare system in the US I'd vote for socialized medicine in a heartbeat.

 

[Grammour Boy]

Canada and European countries that have universal health care systems seem to be ok. I mean their economies aren't necessarily in shambles. And their pharmaceutical companies which are multinational anyway are still making a profit. I don't understand the reluctance on the part of Americans to institute a similar universal health care system for their citizenry.

 

[bad dog]

All the beaners can get 100% free medical coverage here. I can show you a clinic with 100+ mexicans there daily and not a single one of them pay for anything.

We have socialized medicine now , you just need to be a greasy spick to get it.

 

[Grammour Boy]

All the beaners can get 100% free medical coverage here. I can show you a clinic with 100+ mexicans there daily and not a single one of them pay for anything.

We have socialized medicine now , you just need to be a greasy spick to get it.

Ah, I see. Then why all the complaints about how sucky the U.S. health care system is? Why hasn't everyone metamorphosed into greasy spicks? Are they too stupid to figure out the system?

 

[Friday]

Ah, I see. Then why all the complaints about how sucky the U.S. health care system is? Why hasn't everyone metamorphosed into greasy spicks? Are they too stupid to figure out the system?

Just from observation: I went to the ER a few nights ago because I thought my pancreatitis had returned. The last 2 times I went to this ER, I was admitted, first for 5 days, then for 8 days. So common sense would dictate that my being there a third time is pretty serious, no?

No. I had to wait 5 HOURS.

Meanwhile, people that came in after me with sprained ankles, or were just laughing and having a grand old time, left before I was even seen. So that blows the theory that they were more critical than I.

It could be one of two reasons: I didn't have any insurance, or I was one of two caucasian people waiting (the other was a white family who waited as long as I, and was seen right after me). Coincidence? I think not. They just ran out of minorities to put ahead of the line. The facts of the matter bear this supposition out.

 

[RobL]

^ Or that something was happening in the back that you don't know about.

Example: Was that ER a trama center? Someone with a gunshot wound or that was in a really bad car crash requiring emergency (as in, if we don't stick a finger in this artery right now he'll bleed out and die right here and now) treatment might have come in right before you were going to be called, bumping you back. And if the ambulance bay and the waiting room are far apart, then you might not know.

Not saying that's what happened here, or that the system is NOT fucked up, but there are a lot of variables. From my experience, if your put in a waiting room, then your not critical and can wait.

 

[Enkephalen]

^Very true, Robl. I had my own experience with the ER last January. I was brought in by ambulance after having aleady been triaged at an urgent care facility. The first hospital I was driven to was full up and turning new patients away. The second hospital I was taken to accepted me as there was room at the inn. I simply wanted to go home and didn't agree with the diagnosis as I was asymptomatic. Yet to cover their med/mal end of it, they refused to let me discharge myself earlier.

When I was finally discharged from the ER later that night, I had to walk through the waiting room jam packed with people waiting for a bed to be freed up in the ER. I have to admit, I felt guilty about taking up that bed for so many hours while others waited in line who may have been in more urgent need.

 

[Ogami]

Instead of "Socialized Health Care", like Hillary Clinton's doomed plan of 1993, what about just "Free Diagnostics"?

There are all sorts of regular checkups people should have, various cancer tests, heart disease, and so forth. Why not just let the federal government subsidize this? It would not affect our health care system at all, and would arm every citizen with the knowledge of whether they need early treatment or not.

-Ogami

 

[eloisel]

I have excellent insurance. When I was sick from an infected gallbladder, I felt like a 2x4 was being shoved through my back and I threw up for days. My daughter carted me to the hospital emergency room 2 blocks away when I couldn't stop throwing up. The staff shuffled me around from the waiting room, to a hall, to a room, back out in the hall, back into the waiting room. About 2 hours after I arrived, they put me in a room and gave me a shot to help me stop throwing up and another shot for the pain. After that, I sang Eimenem songs that are somehow stuck in my brain. While I was being shuffled around, from what little bit I was able to discern of my surroundings, considering I was hunched over a large wastebasket the entire time, I thought surely I was the person most in need in the place. Must not have been.

 

[Friday]

^ Or that something was happening in the back that you don't know about.

Example: Was that ER a trama center? Someone with a gunshot wound or that was in a really bad car crash requiring emergency (as in, if we don't stick a finger in this artery right now he'll bleed out and die right here and now) treatment might have come in right before you were going to be called, bumping you back. And if the ambulance bay and the waiting room are far apart, then you might not know.

Not saying that's what happened here, or that the system is NOT fucked up, but there are a lot of variables. From my experience, if your put in a waiting room, then your not critical and can wait.

The second time I was in the ER, I was in unbearable pain, had a fever, and threw up bile in the waiting room. A lot of it. I *still* had to wait 2 hours while I was told other less severe cases went ahead of me.

This time around, I actually saw someone who, apparently, had a splinter in his foot (I overheard he and his homies talking) go in a half hour after he arrived, only to leave 3 hours before I was seen.

No, the ER was just a neighborhood hospital ER. And I saw what I saw.

Not to mention I have to eat narcotics like candy because the facility I need to get my procedure done at has some kind of insurance quota. As a matter of fact, my GI tried t6 make it a hospital to hospital transfer the last time I was admitted...the second facility refused me. Even tho my case is marked urgent.

 

[RobL]

^ Then the next question is, could they have done anything for you other than ripping your guts open right then and removing your blocked duct? I mean, other than giving you more narcotics, which you have said that have plenty of already.

From reading your other posts, it sounds as though your case is chronic, that is to say, nothing that they can do till you have your surgery.

Also, to be blunt, are you going to the same ER every time? Chances are that they KNOW you by now, and know your case. They've told you what to eat to keep you from getting this again, yet, you keep coming back. You've also mouthed off to a doctor (calling him a drug pusher). That tends to piss them off, and even if its another doctor, they do talk you know. Burning bridges and pissing people off who are going to cut you open and play with your insides isn't a good idea, generally.

 

[Friday]

^ Then the next question is, could they have done anything for you other than ripping your guts open right then and removing your blocked duct? I mean, other than giving you more narcotics, which you have said that have plenty of already.

From reading your other posts, it sounds as though your case is chronic, that is to say, nothing that they can do till you have your surgery.

While I was in the waiting room, they had no idea what was going on. Since the last two times I was admitted with a VERY enlarged pancreas, don't you think the doctors should have acted on this side of caution? True, the third time ended up not being pancreatits, but they couldn't know that until they examined me. And, until my blood tests came back, I thought myself my pancreatitis had come back. What I'm saying, is *based in the facts of my last two visits*, the doctors should have been a lot more diligent in their assessment.

Also, to be blunt, are you going to the same ER every time? Chances are that they KNOW you by now, and know your case. They've told you what to eat to keep you from getting this again, yet, you keep coming back. You've also mouthed off to a doctor (calling him a drug pusher). That tends to piss them off, and even if its another doctor, they do talk you know. Burning bridges and pissing people off who are going to cut you open and play with your insides isn't a good idea, generally.

Yep, same ER. And the effects of my illness are cumulative. Even if I eat nothing but saltines and water, my symptoms are going to get worse because there is no drainage. At all. The low fat diet (which I am begrudgingly following under threat of being "flogged" ) is only meant to slow things down, not improve the situation. And there's only so much slowing down one can do before things become critical.

The only thing you are correct about is me telling the doctor off. Granted, I was in a morphine funk at the time, but I was also frustrated with my 5 hour wait, and being in constant pain. However, it did seem that instead of helping me find a solution to my problem he kept suggesting more medicine to take care of it. He could have, at the very least, offered to call the GI at the facility and have my appointment moved up due to increasingly dangerous symptoms. Instead, he opted to keep me perpetually stoned until my appointment. Meh.

But I had visions of Elaine when she tried to get her "permanent records" back from her doctor, in that episode of Seinfeld. Wasn't a smart move, but it was a human one.

 

[missmanners]

Instead of "Socialized Health Care", like Hillary Clinton's doomed plan of 1993, what about just "Free Diagnostics"?

There are all sorts of regular checkups people should have, various cancer tests, heart disease, and so forth. Why not just let the federal government subsidize this? It would not affect our health care system at all, and would arm every citizen with the knowledge of whether they need early treatment or not.

-Ogami

And the uninsured working middle class in the high risk group of ~50 to 65 would not be able to afford the threatment even if they KNEW they needed it. I'd rather see some sort of sliding scale based on income guaranteed insurance coverage.


mm

 

[bad dog]

And the uninsured working middle class in the high risk group of ~50 to 65 would not be able to afford the threatment even if they KNEW they needed it. I'd rather see some sort of sliding scale based on income guaranteed insurance coverage.


mm

My state has that now , I dont want the feds to fuck it all up.

 

[missmanners]

My state has that now , I dont want the feds to fuck it all up.

Every time I hear something about the federal government controling the health care system, I think VA. Ever wonder why people who have VA "benefits" would rather have private insurance?


mm

 

[Ogami]

missmanners wrote:

And the uninsured working middle class in the high risk group of ~50 to 65 would not be able to afford the threatment even if they KNEW they needed it. I'd rather see some sort of sliding scale based on income guaranteed insurance coverage.

It's true that the Democrats point to the millions of uninsured in this country and say we need to cover them. But what they don't say is that many of those people don't want to be paying for healthcare and don't want it.

Socialized medicine failed to pass in this country when the Democrats could not agree on a specific plan in 1993. I think it would be a good idea for the federal government to subsidize checkups and early detections, and leave the rest private.

-Ogami

 

[missmanners]

missmanners wrote:

And the uninsured working middle class in the high risk group of ~50 to 65 would not be able to afford the threatment even if they KNEW they needed it. I'd rather see some sort of sliding scale based on income guaranteed insurance coverage.

It's true that the Democrats point to the millions of uninsured in this country and say we need to cover them. But what they don't say is that many of those people don't want to be paying for healthcare and don't want it.

Socialized medicine failed to pass in this country when the Democrats could not agree on a specific plan in 1993. I think it would be a good idea for the federal government to subsidize checkups and early detections, and leave the rest private.

-Ogami

You still haven't explained how an uninsured 60 year old who has his lung cancer detected early for free will pay for the treatment of that cancer.


mm

 

[eloisel]

mm, I understand what you mean. Everything in the medical field costs money - research, development, medicines, skills, facilities, supplies, equipment. I agree it has to be funded. But, there is making a profit and there is making a profit. How is hostage taking - "I'll give you something to save your life or something to prolong your life one more week for $10,000" - ethical? How are services only for the ones with the most money ethical? We're not talking about the difference between walking or driving a new Mercedes Benz to work. Life is not a luxury item.

 

[Laker_Girl]

I haven't read every post yet, just mm but I wanted to put my two cents in and then I will go back.

As far as drug companies are concerned the matter of astronomical costs is an ethical one. Unfortunately, while scientist working for drug companies, I'm sure, have nothing but a will and desire to cure the ill, investors have an interest in making money. Scientist don't work for free nor are they catagorized as underpaid, drug companies have to pay scientist to work to discover the next greatest drug. It's a viscious cycle but there's no way of getting around it. For those with health insurance it's means higher co-pays which sucks but $15.00 is much better than $200.00 wouldn't you say? For those without health insurance a lot of the bigger drug companies offer programs for free or nearly free perscription drugs and surprisingly you don't have to be living in a cardboard box to qualify. I think drug companies are doing what they can to help but remember, scientists don't work for free.

As most of you know I recently had emergency surgery and I was absolutely shocked at the cost of such a thing. The Surgeon used hospital equipment, operated for 1 1/2 hours and it cost $5,000.00?!?!? Who else on earth makes roughly $3,500.00 and hour?!?!?!?! And it's not like he put a new gall bladder in all he did was take the rotten one out!! But you know, it's not like I had a choice. There's a reason hairstylist can't really charge whatever they want, as a patron, ifyou don't like the price you can just go elsewhere. But when you HAVE to have surgery or you'll develop septic shock and die you're stuck. Granted, I was at a private hospital and probably could have asked to be transferred to county but that's a learning hospital and I'd rather have doctors who know what the hell they're doing and I paid the price.