New low for Faith Healers

[Ogami]

Michael J. Fox has just made a commercial for Missouri's Democrat candidate Claire McCaskill. Apparently Ms. McCaskill will personally cure Parkinson's Disease, but that dastardly Republican Senator Jim Talent won't let her! This is reminiscent of how VP candidate John Edwards said that John Kerry would personally cure Christopher Reeve's paralysis with stem cells.

If Bush's personal faith is so offensive to Democrats, then why aren't they also offended by these faith healers? Bush never claimed to smack his palm against someone's forehead to heal them, but that's what Democrats promise today.

Here's Michael J. Fox's commercial. (Someone should tell Fox that Talent has always supported adult stem cell research. But why let facts matter?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9WB_PXjTBo

 

[Sarek]

Bush doesn't need to smack his palm against someone's forehead.

"I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it." - George W. Bush.

"God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq" - George W. Bush

He says god is talking to him.

 

[headvoid]

Since joining the Senate in 2002, Talent had supported federal legislation that would ban stem cell research. This included co-sponsoring a bill sponsored by Senator Sam Brownback which would ban all forms of human cloning, including embryonic therapeutic cloning techniques that are seen as crucial to stem cell research.

Now recently he has changed his mind in fact February of this year.

but then he has voted rather oddly for this new change of heart:

In the senate, he subsequently voted against expanding federal funds for embryonic stem cell research in July of 2006.

So this is a campaign that's going badly then and you are a bit peeved about the Democrats stealing a march, or are you actually interested in the facts here?

 

[Ogami]

Sarek, I've read this before from serious people, and it's simply a ludicrous characterization of the man's faith.

When Gore invoked God's blessing and God throughout his speeches, no one shrieked "OH MY GOD GORE IS A RELIGIOUS FRUITCAKE WHO TALKS TO GOD!"

Same for Kerry.

I must say I am pleased that this is one of a handful of major objections to Bush that I've seen over 5 years. It's so absolutely frivolous to make something out of the guy's religion that it's clear his opponents have very little substance behind their opposition to him. It's just reflexive Bush-bashing, zero intellect required. How much harder it would be to take issue with Bush on the issues of the day, right? Let's attack his religious beliefs!

-Ogami

 

[Ogami]

Headvoid, thank you for this:

Since joining the Senate in 2002, Talent had supported federal legislation that would ban stem cell research. This included co-sponsoring a bill sponsored by Senator Sam Brownback which would ban all forms of human cloning, including embryonic therapeutic cloning techniques that are seen as crucial to stem cell research.

Of course, it is purely personal opinion when someone states that embryonic stem cell research (as opposed to adult stem cell research) is "seen as crucial". Headvoid, you know perfectly well no one can predict the future, so how can you expect anyone to believe this tripe? You can no more predict what one form of research will cure than the next! Who is this expert who claimed to know the future, Nostradamus? Ridiculous!

In the senate, he subsequently voted against expanding federal funds for embryonic stem cell research in July of 2006.

There is, of course, a difference between banning all stem cell research, and opposing the federal government funding of embryonic stem cell research. I for one do not want to see mile after mile of Matrix-style cloning vats creating fetuses just so they can be flushed away down the drain. That's the future the Democrats want for the human race, and it's not something that you can get me to approve of simply by watching Michael J. Fox twitch.

-Ogami

 

[headvoid]

and it's not something that you can get me to approve of simply by watching Michael J. Fox twitch.

LOL,

But to quote you from earlier

Someone should tell Fox that Talent has always supported adult stem cell research. But why let facts matter?

has that changed? The "facts" as you put them are slightly less clear.

 

[Sarek]

Sarek, I've read this before from serious people, and it's simply a ludicrous characterization of the man's faith.

When Gore invoked God's blessing and God throughout his speeches, no one shrieked "OH MY GOD GORE IS A RELIGIOUS FRUITCAKE WHO TALKS TO GOD!"

Same for Kerry.

I must say I am pleased that this is one of a handful of major objections to Bush that I've seen over 5 years. It's so absolutely frivolous to make something out of the guy's religion that it's clear his opponents have very little substance behind their opposition to him. It's just reflexive Bush-bashing, zero intellect required. How much harder it would be to take issue with Bush on the issues of the day, right? Let's attack his religious beliefs!

-Ogami

You're right; we need to concentrate less on his complete disregard for the separation of church and state.

Instead, we should be concentrating on his:

Lying to the American public to get us involved in a war for oil and profit,

His authorization to disregard the protocols of the Geneva Convention and the articles of war,

His raping of the lower and middle class in this country,

His grinding of the elderly and their healthcare programs under his foot,

His incestuous relationship with big oil and large corporate interests,

His disregard for national security unless it fits in with big business and profit,

His total lack of support for education,

His flip flopping on the whole immigration issue (let them all in and make them legal, lets build a fence and keep them out..),

His disregard for the Constitution and the bill of rights,

His “I’m above the dictates of congress and US laws of the land” attitude,

His “manipulation” of executive powers and the perversion of the Office of President from a (semi) respectable position to one of greed, corruption, and elitism.

Yeah, that’s what we SHOULD be concentrating on.

 

[Ogami]

Headvoid, it looks like this was an orchestrated "October Surprise" by the Democrats. They've using Fox in similar EMBRYONIC stem cell ads in Maryland, probably elsewhere:

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/24/video-cardin-uses-fox-in-steele-bush-attack-ad/

What's bizarre about this angle by Democrats is that they still believe the most important right of any mother is to murder as many of her children as possible. There are demographic studies showing that the Democrats have murdered million of potential Democrat voters who could have put more Democrats into office by now but the Democrats have aborted them for 30 years now.

Bottom line, if the Democrats take over the House and Senate in 2006, and the White House in 2008, and paralysis or Parkinson's aren't cured as a result, whom will the Democrats apologize to? They won't, and they'll laugh at the gullibility of their voters. Snake oil salesmen through and through.

-Ogami

 

[headvoid]

I agree on the snake oil salesman, but we will have to differ on your rather odd rant on anti abortion.

 

[Ogami]

Sometimes I rant.

Here's the articles, by the way. Perhaps they're more cogent than I am:

The Empty Cradle Will Rock
How abortion is costing the Democrats voters--literally.

BY LARRY L. EASTLAND
Monday, June 28, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

More than 40 million legal abortions have been performed and documented in the 30 years since the U.S. Supreme Court declared abortion legal. The debate remains focused on the legality and morality of abortion. What's largely ignored is a factual analysis of the political consequences of 40 million abortions. Consider:

• There were 12,274,368 in the Voting Age Population of 205,815,000 missing from the 2000 presidential election, because of abortions from 1973-82.

• In this year's election, there will be 18,336,576 in the Voting Age Population missing because of abortions between 1972 and 1986.

• In the 2008 election, 24,408,960 in the Voting Age Population will be missing because of abortions between 1973-90.

These numbers will not change. They are based on individual choices made--aggregated nationally--as long as 30 years ago. Look inside these numbers at where the political impact is felt most. Do Democrats realize that millions of Missing Voters--due to the abortion policies they advocate--gave George W. Bush the margin of victory in 2000?

The number of abortions accumulate in size and political impact as the years roll along. Like an avalanche that picks up speed, mass, and power as it thunders down a mountain, the number of Missing Voters from abortion changes the landscape of politics. The absence of the missing voters may not be noticed, but that doesn't mean its political impact disappears. As seen during a famine, what no longer exists becomes as relevant as what does.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005277

The 'Roe Effect'
Abortion today results in fewer Democratic voters 18 years from now.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/taranto/roeeffect.htm

 

[headvoid]

Using this warped logic if I leave my fridge open the whole world will go cold.

Do democrats really believe in 13 year olds getting abortions without their parents knowledge? I doubt it.

 

[Ogami]

Think demographics. Unless you believe that wealthy, upscale, Bel Air Republican women get abortions more than poor women?

The Democratic party is aborting themselves out of existence. All those new generations of poor Democrat moms on welfare, well they got aborted 20-30 years ago. They were murdered for convenience, for fun, for carefree living, for first-line birth control. Which is what the vast majority of abortions have been carried out in this country for, convenience of lazy moms. Not because of health, rape, or incest, as are the usual canards.

The result? GOP in power forever. And we weren't involved at all!

-Ogami

 

[headvoid]

My point about the fridge is your slightly amusing theory uses one variable on a population the size of the US. i.e. it is not reliant on one thing.

Hence if my fridge is open and no other variables are in mind then the world will get cold.

 

[Ogami]

Oh never mind. When the Democrats lose, they can just blame it on GOP dirty tricks, bad luck, or anything else they can think of besides blaming themselves or their message for losing.

 

[headvoid]

I just re-read my post and I sound like Mentalist. I am going to step back from the computer now.

You need to let this democrat thing go man, I'm beginning to think we may have to come round and look in your cellar for missing campaigners/

 

[Ogami]

I fully expect Democrats to air commercials where they moan "Put your hand on the TV, heal your soul, feeeeeeel the love."

Now we've got quack Democrat faith healers who can cure everything from paralysis to Parkinson's to hemmorhoids. I mean come on, people! You'd be in hysterics if the GOP was making these ludicrous claims.

 

[Ogami]

The Unconscionable Claims of Michael J. Fox
by Mary L. Davenport, MD
October 25th, 2006

The popular and appealing actor Michael J. Fox has taken to the airwaves in Senate battleground states Missouri, Maryland, and New Jersey with a highly misleading ad urging defeat of Republican Senatorial candidates opposing the use of taxpayer dollars to fund new embryonic stem cell line research. He states,

“Stem cell research offers hope to millions of Americans with diseases like diabetes, Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s…. But George Bush and Michael Steele would put limits on the most promising stem cell research.”

Mr. Fox and his ads’ sponsors are guilty of conflating embryonic stem cell research, which the GOP candidates and many Americans oppose for destroying a human life in the name of curing other people’s diseases, with stem cell research in general, which includes adult stem cell research and umbilical cord blood stem cell research.

The only limits in question are on federal funding of new embryonic stem cell lines, requiring the sacrifice of new embryos. Private and state-funded research (California voters are spending six billion dollars borrowing money to fund this) is ongoing. The implicit claim that research based on new embryos is “the most promising” is absurd, completely unsupported by the scientific literature, and an insult to voters, based as it is on the assumption that they are incapable of understanding the issue. Too stupid to tell the difference, is the elitist assumption underlying this campaign.

Flim-flam is a charitable description. Why would federally-funded research be more promising than state- and privately-funded research? And on what possible basis can the claim be made that embryonic stem cell research is more promising than adult stem cell research?

The plain fact is that embryonic stem cell research is proving to be a bust. There are currently 72 therapies showing human benefits using adult stem cells and zero using embryonic stem cells. Scientifically-minded readers can review this medical journal article on the status of adult stem cell research. Adult stem cell therapies are already being advertised and promoted while no such treatments are even remotely in prospect for embryonic stem cell research.

The fact is that adult stem cells have already produced remarkable cures, whereas embryonic stem cells have failed. This should come as no great surprise to anyone with a background in high school biology. When an embryo is created by the union of the sperm and egg, the cells begin to divide, creating embryonic stem cells from which all future tissues and organs are derived. Within days, the embryonic cells differentiate into three cell layers – ectoderm, mesoderm and endoderm. Cells in these layers continue to differentiate into tissues and organs. As the embryo matures into a fetus, child, and adult, some undifferentiated cells of the three types remain in various tissues such as bone marrow, fat, skin and olfactory tissue.

These adult stem cells are multipotent: they have the ability to turn into a variety of types of tissues. Successful stem cell therapies cause the DNA in the adult stem cells to further differentiate into more specific types of cells. There is no point in getting the adult stem cell to turn into a less differentiated type of cell, or using the more primitive embryonic stem cells. This would be going backward, in the opposite direction of providing a clinically useful therapy. Difficulties abound with proposed embryonic stem cell therapies. The growth of the more primitive embryonic stem cells is more difficult to control and leads to tumor formation. Recent research suggests brain tumors may result. Additionally, the use of embryonic tissue foreign to the patient can potentially lead to problems with immune rejection of tissue, a problem not encountered in using a patient’s own adult stem cells.

America is the most formidable medical research center in the world, but it is far from alone in pursuing the potential of adult stem cells. The worldwide effort is impressive and growing. For non-adult stem cell research, a morally unquestionable alternative source exists: stem cells drawn from umbilical cord blood. Already a bank exists in Dubai collecting cord blood stem cells.

In short, the claims made in the Michael J. Fox political ads are false and reprehensible, an insult to the voters of Maryland, Missouri and New Jersey, and to all Americans.

Mary L. Davenport, MD is an obstetrician and gynecologist, and a Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5977&search=Fox

 

[headvoid]

This would mean that you are also opposed to IVF treatment as the destruction of a zygote of 8 blastomere cells is a regular occurance in this process. this note below shows how Adult Stem Cells will not necessarily be a viable alternative.

Adult stem cells (such as blood stem cells), in contrast to embryonic cells, have undergone a great deal of exogenous interaction with other cells. This makes adult stem cells very different from the zygote blastomere cells, which are human stem cells in the most undifferentiated and most isolated form

I wouldn't be surprised if this debate is being driven by the Christian right - an excerpt from a different article on your source website.

The article is well worth reading, because outright hatred of religion seems to be quite on the rise in the United States. You hear it in comparisons of evangelical Christianity with Wahhabism, quite a commonplace on the left.

 

[Ogami]

Headvoid, you can't be intellectually honest and tell me that if Democrats are elected that Cynthia is going to cure Parkinson's or Edwards is going to cure paralysis.

It should SICKEN YOU that any policitian would claim that they alone can cure disease whereas their opponent must want people to die.

And you sit there and whine about whether there's some Christians at a website? Maybe I should start believing your penname.

-Ogami

 

[Sarek]

This argument is pretty much a moot point. Even if the Democrats could live up to the “outrageous claims” that Orgami is crying about, the medical and pharmaceutical companies in cooperation with the Bush administration and the Republicans have made health care in this country a luxury affordable to the rich, powerful and elite only.

Average out of pocket health care expenses are bankrupting the average American family and in most cases, the health care they can afford doesn’t cover shit.

Fuck the Republicans. I’ll take my chances with the bullshit claims the Democrats toss around. It’s preferable over another round of the Republican sponsored ass ramming that working America has received the last 6 years.

Besides, as we’ve all seen, it’s not like the Republicans don’t fertilize the American public with their own brand of outrageous bullshit. The difference here is that with the Democrats, there’s the possibility we might be surprised by the actions they take. We already know what the Republicans are going to continue doing.