Scholastic Origins

[Ketman]

Hitler's one armed salute had it's beginnings not in Rome, as is the popular consensus. In all actuality, this iconic gesture began in the classrooms of America:

The Pledge of Allegiance and Nazism in America

The pledge of allegiance was the origin of the salute of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi Party) because Francis Bellamy was a self-proclaimed national socialist who promoted “military socialism†(a Bellamy term). To promote militarism, Bellamy's pledge of allegiance began with a military salute.

The military salute was held for the phrase “I pledge allegiance†and then the right arm extended straight outward toward the flag for the rest of the chant.

I am here merely to educate.

 

[Ketman]

http://rexcurry.net/nazisalute.jpg

 

[Ketman]

I don't see your point, Sardonica. There is little or no evidence to corroborate the salute originating in Rome, however there is a tremendous amount of evidence to support the assertion that the gesture started in U.S. schools.

The Roman Empire scenario is a myth, perpetuated by frightened American historians. They fear the truth becoming known.

 

[The Question]

Wow! And here I always thought that the Roman Empire came before the founding of America! Shows how little we know... thanks Ketman!

If I remember right, the Roman version is similar, but not identical -- closed fist on the heart, then pivot the elbow horizontally outward, hand remaining in a closed fist, with the arm perfectly perpendicular to the ground. Obviously, the Nazis version is quite different, although I still haven't seen anything compelling to convince me that the Nazis' version was identical to any American salute.

Still, you never know -- before the 45th adopted the Thunderbird as their Divisional crest, it was the swastika. So ya never know.

 

[headspace]

The Nazis are the biggest victims of revisionist history. Everyone (including America) thought they were the great white hope in the 30's. Every single one of the Axis powers was doing unspeakable things to minorities through that entire period.

(The Americans are one of the biggest history revisors. I accept Pol Pot and the North Koreans probably steal the march on them.)

The point on the salute is piffle frankly. The similarity in the fascists salutes has more to do with European military history and fashion than with any American involvement. The Question has it on the nose as far as the blackshirt salute goes. Making a link between the two would be the same as say... the Boy Scouts and the Army

I'm sure I also need not explain to you learned people the original peaceful meaning behind the swastika? You see... constant revisionism.

 

[starguard]

Hitler's one armed salute had it's beginnings not in Rome, as is the popular consensus. In all actuality, this iconic gesture began in the classrooms of America:

..and heres proof

 

[TJHairball]

If I remember right, the Roman version is similar, but not identical -- closed fist on the heart, then pivot the elbow horizontally outward, hand remaining in a closed fist, with the arm perfectly perpendicular to the ground. Obviously, the Nazis version is quite different, although I still haven't seen anything compelling to convince me that the Nazis' version was identical to any American salute.

I've seen the detailed descriptions of the old American salute to the flag. IIRC, it was dropped in a hurry during WWII. The palm may have been angled slightly upward, but in casual practice, there was no visible difference between the two, as seen here in Wikipedia's excellent article on the topic (boy, was I having trouble finding a picture until I looked there).

Wikipedia also has something of an article on the origins of the "roman" salute.

If the salute began accompanying the Pledge as soon as it was launched, it would be one of the earliest new "Roman salutes" used (1892). The Olympics were launched in 1896, and the earliest of the "Roman" films noted in the Wikipedia article is 1907. Various proto-Fascist groups began picking up the gesture around the beginning of the Great War (WWI).

The United States has historically used many of the same symbols as fascist states - including notable the fasces, which (at least when I last found cause to be around the building, fairly early in 2005) are displayed prominently in the Capitol in DC. You may or may not be able to make them out in televised sessions of the House, but I assure you they are quite prominently visible and easily identified. Completely unmistakable.

The classic fasces were also on US dimes; they quietly removed the axe-head in 1945, leaving the "bundle of sticks" that we see today.

 

[Hambil]

If we could just go back in time and change the American salute, none of that horrible nazi stuff would happened.

 

[Ketman]

I've seen the detailed descriptions of the old American salute to the flag. IIRC, it was dropped in a hurry during WWII. The palm may have been angled slightly upward, but in casual practice, there was no visible difference between the two, as seen here in Wikipedia's excellent article on the topic (boy, was I having trouble finding a picture until I looked there).

Wikipedia also has something of an article on the origins of the "roman" salute.

If the salute began accompanying the Pledge as soon as it was launched, it would be one of the earliest new "Roman salutes" used (1892). The Olympics were launched in 1896, and the earliest of the "Roman" films noted in the Wikipedia article is 1907. Various proto-Fascist groups began picking up the gesture around the beginning of the Great War (WWI).

The United States has historically used many of the same symbols as fascist states - including notable the fasces, which (at least when I last found cause to be around the building, fairly early in 2005) are displayed prominently in the Capitol in DC. You may or may not be able to make them out in televised sessions of the House, but I assure you they are quite prominently visible and easily identified. Completely unmistakable.

The classic fasces were also on US dimes; they quietly removed the axe-head in 1945, leaving the "bundle of sticks" that we see today.

Since my power of karma has been taken away, I'll have to quote this entire post to say, "Good job, TJ Hairball. Fair, accurate, and open minded."

 

[Ketman]

If we could just go back in time and change the American salute, none of that horrible nazi stuff would happened.

Consider this a neg karma, Rat.

 

[Starship Coyote]

Wow, there's something I haven't thought about in a while.

IIRC, the Bellamy salute that came about the same time as the Pledge...1892 or so...extended the right arm with the palm up as if holding the flag. You will see pictures, as noted above, with the palm down. That's mainly because small children have a hard time with complicated body positions. Next time you get a chance, for example, watch a class reciting the Pledge, and you'll see small kids with their left hand over their heart and other slightly different positions.

TJHairball, yes the fasces appears on the dime (in a modified form) and in various government architecture. Keep in mind that the founding daddies were, for the most part, well versed in classical history (including the Roman historians) and incorporated many elements of the Roman Republic into the new nation...the Senate, for example.

 

[Ketman]

Wow, there's something I haven't thought about in a while.

IIRC, the Bellamy salute that came about the same time as the Pledge...1892 or so...extended the right arm with the palm up as if holding the flag. You will see pictures, as noted above, with the palm down. That's mainly because small children have a hard time with complicated body positions. Next time you get a chance, for example, watch a class reciting the Pledge, and you'll see small kids with their left hand over their heart and other slightly different positions.

TJHairball, yes the fasces appears on the dime (in a modified form) and in various government architecture. Keep in mind that the founding daddies were, for the most part, well versed in classical history (including the Roman historians) and incorporated many elements of the Roman Republic into the new nation...the Senate, for example.

Consider this a positive Karma.

 

[TJHairball]

TJHairball, yes the fasces appears on the dime (in a modified form) and in various government architecture. Keep in mind that the founding daddies were, for the most part, well versed in classical history (including the Roman historians) and incorporated many elements of the Roman Republic into the new nation...the Senate, for example.

Very much the case... as it was very much the case with the facists.

As far as Mussolini was concerned, he was making the new Roman Empire. Hitler certainly wanted to have his reign spoken of in the same breath in history books as the Holy Roman Empire.

Afterwards, of course, it became unfashionable to resemble facists, but many of the symbols and gestures were adopted by America for similar reasons that assorted facist groups adopted them.