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The Bath School Disaster

T

Tyrant

New member
With all due respect and sympathy to the victims and their families of the Columbine and McDonald's shootings, the Oklahoma bombing, and other mass murders, they were not the worst mass murders of children in the US.

On May 18, 1927, 45 people, mostly children, were killed and 58 were injured when disgruntled and demented school board member Andrew Kehoe dynamited the new school building in Bath, Michigan out of revenge over his foreclosed farm due in part to the taxes required to pay for the new school.

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~bauerle/disaster.htm




No guns here.
 
It doesn't count because it's not a crazy teenager/it wasn't done with a gun, so we can't blame it on the declining mores of society/a lack of or excess gun control.
 
I can make a good bomb with household products and the Internet. I already know how to make Chlorine gas (just heat salt). If I want to dress up and be V, no laws are going to stop me, unless you keep people in permanent stasis for their own safety.

It depends on the quality of the people, on cooperation in society. Not laws.

I already know how to make Chlorine gas (just heat salt)
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Now here I've given a psycho a powerful weapon.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1793324

That will fucking kill you. I can kill anyone I please. The power is in my hands. I don't do it because I'm not a loony.

I have never fired a weapon in my life. But if I held one in my hands I would understand that it is a thing of fucking power, and that I should be careful with it, and not use it to act out like an emo Chinese punk.
 
Tyrant said:
I have never fired a weapon in my life. But if I held one in my hands I would understand that it is a thing of fucking power, and that I should be careful with it, and not use it to act out like an emo Chinese punk.
Click to expand...


This is definitley a point well made.

But people in general are so fucking stupid on a global scale that not everyone will respect the huge responsibility that it takes to own and carry a firearm. It's those people that worry me and I would hope that not every Tom, Dick and Harry can procure and handle one legally without some system in place where they have to prove that they understand the fact that it's not a toy.

It's true that we have the power to kill very easily and that we are stopped from doing so because we're not insane to start with. Guns just make that leap to insanity a squeeze away though.
 
Tyrant said:
I can make a good bomb with household products and the Internet. I already know how to make Chlorine gas (just heat salt). If I want to dress up and be V, no laws are going to stop me, unless you keep people in permanent stasis for their own safety.

It depends on the quality of the people, on cooperation in society. Not laws.



Now here I've given a psycho a powerful weapon.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1793324

That will fucking kill you. I can kill anyone I please. The power is in my hands. I don't do it because I'm not a loony.

I have never fired a weapon in my life. But if I held one in my hands I would understand that it is a thing of fucking power, and that I should be careful with it, and not use it to act out like an emo Chinese punk.
Click to expand...

What an excellent post. Thank you. It's like a relief to know I don't think like this alone in the world.
 
Mentalist said:
This is definitley a point well made.

But people in general are so fucking stupid on a global scale that not everyone will respect the huge responsibility that it takes to own and carry a firearm. It's those people that worry me and I would hope that not every Tom, Dick and Harry can procure and handle one legally without some system in place where they have to prove that they understand the fact that it's not a toy.

It's true that we have the power to kill very easily and that we are stopped from doing so because we're not insane to start with. Guns just make that leap to insanity a squeeze away though.
Click to expand...
There is no denying that they do. So long as we don't place the blame solely on guns, when there are sickos which, if energized enough, will make their fantasies come true. If people wish to make it an issue of general safety, so be it. Blaming an entire group of people for their stance, those who use firearms for practice, or feeling they have immense power in their hands at a gun range, or for self-defense, is wrong and misleading.

I have an issue with that.
 
I have no problem with the law abiding citizen who carries a gun for whatever reason. If they take the responsibility seriously and are stable enough to carry a gun without being a threat to innocent people in any capacity then there is no problem.

I have no problem with guns themselves either. They are tools, albeit very dangerous ones. That's sort of the point.

It's the ease of access that I find staggering. Because you don't have to stop all those law abiding citizens from carrying guns, which I agree in many circumstances can actually save lives, (like the off duty policeman who shot dead that nutter in the mall before he could kill more people.)


Clearly right now we have a situation where this guy was a known nutjob. he had been through the system. He was known to be a danger.

Yet at every step of the way services failed to kick into gear and get to him before he went off the deep end. And despite his extensive history and known mental illness he had no trouble procuring weapons and ammo enough to commit this crime.

That is where my problem exists. It's an utter failure. If he hadn't been able to get hold of guns legally then he most likley would of improvised with something else, as you said. A persistent nutter will find a way to kill if they want to kill. No doubt. The truth is that there are many faliures in this case that led to this guy going unchecked.

The ease of use in getting the guns is just a part of it. There is a myriad of things that need to be fixed to at least cut down on the damage these people get away with but with better controls on who can and cannot get weapons (and this would not stop the vast majority of law abiding citizens) he would at least have been unable to shoot 32 people dead with such ease despite being a known loonbox with his name printed all over psyche reports.
 
Except, Mentalist, guns will ALWAYS be easy to get if you really want one. You just have to be willing to pay the price to get it. How do you think all the gangsters in south Los Angeles get their guns?

Current Federal and State rules and forums are just stupid. Asking if someone is mentally defective, yet, having no way to verfiy his answer because of H.I.P.A. is only one example.
 
Except, Mentalist, guns will ALWAYS be easy to get if you really want one. You just have to be willing to pay the price to get it. How do you think all the gangsters in south Los Angeles get their guns?
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There is always the potential ability to get guns illegally but I wouldn't call it necessarily easy to do so. You need to know where and who to see to get them on the black market.


As you said, the current system of enforcing whether people are, for instance, mentally defective despite the habitual nature of mentally defective people lying about, well, being mentally defective is just one example of how silly the current system is. Surely they can do better than that at least.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm not levelling this all in the ballpark of gun laws of the lack thereof. In fact I'm trying to make the case that it's a series of faliures happening in tandem that leads to these things happening. And hell, even if you have every safe guard in place and every department does their job perfectly these things will still happen from time to time. It's just the nature of things.

It seems like the argument is flaring up in the gun control corner though and whether students should be strapped to the brink in school in some crazy attempt to introduce a balance of power to the classroom (although I agree that there should have been at least some trusted individuals at that school with weapons who could of intervened) and I just don't see why people are so hellbent on saying that gun control laws won't work. Maybe not, they certainly don't now. That's because they clearly suck and I will avoid comparisons with the UK legislation because the situations are suitably different in a number of ways.


Simply put the system in place right now is a joke if this kid who is a listed nutter can still buy guns with nothing but his driving licence. It's certainly not the only issue but it is one of them.
 
Oh, I agree. The system is fucked, to be certian.

BTW, all 50 states have different rules about purchasing firearms. The two most restrictive IMO are Calf. and Mass.

In CA, we have a ten day wait, magazines with more then ten rounds are prohibited if they were manufactured post 1994 (and you can't legaly buy them no matter when they were made), new gun models have to pass a very strict "gun testing" procedure and then be renewed every so often in order to be sold, handguns have to have a magazine disconnect, and a whole bunch of other rules that not even I can remember most of the time.

Some states, you pass a background check, and have a license, and you can carry your gun out with you same day.
 
Mentalist said:
I have no problem with the law abiding citizen who carries a gun for whatever reason. If they take the responsibility seriously and are stable enough to carry a gun without being a threat to innocent people in any capacity then there is no problem.

I have no problem with guns themselves either. They are tools, albeit very dangerous ones. That's sort of the point.

It's the ease of access that I find staggering. Because you don't have to stop all those law abiding citizens from carrying guns, which I agree in many circumstances can actually save lives, (like the off duty policeman who shot dead that nutter in the mall before he could kill more people.)


Clearly right now we have a situation where this guy was a known nutjob. he had been through the system. He was known to be a danger.

Yet at every step of the way services failed to kick into gear and get to him before he went off the deep end. And despite his extensive history and known mental illness he had no trouble procuring weapons and ammo enough to commit this crime.

That is where my problem exists. It's an utter failure. If he hadn't been able to get hold of guns legally then he most likley would of improvised with something else, as you said. A persistent nutter will find a way to kill if they want to kill. No doubt. The truth is that there are many faliures in this case that led to this guy going unchecked.

The ease of use in getting the guns is just a part of it. There is a myriad of things that need to be fixed to at least cut down on the damage these people get away with but with better controls on who can and cannot get weapons (and this would not stop the vast majority of law abiding citizens) he would at least have been unable to shoot 32 people dead with such ease despite being a known loonbox with his name printed all over psyche reports.
Click to expand...
Then it's a failure on the part of the law. Unfortunately, no worthy attention will ever be brought to it here, because it will alway be sized down to an issue of whether or not Americans should be permitted to have guns in the first place.
 
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