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U.S. economy still shite

ctmelvital

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Manufacturing, Home Prices Probably Sank: U.S. Economy Preview

Dec. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Manufacturing in the U.S. probably shrank at the fastest pace since 1980 as the deepening global recession forced customers in North America, Europe and Asia to cut back, economists said before reports this week.

The Institute for Supply Management’s December factory index dropped to 35.4, the lowest reading in almost three decades, according to the median estimate of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News. A separate report may show the record drop in home prices accelerated in October.

The real-estate crash has reverberated throughout the world as credit markets seized up, choking off demand for everything from cars and trucks to computers and appliances. President- elect Barack Obama, who takes office Jan. 20, has said his first priority will be to pass an economic stimulus plan that will invest in public works and create or save 3 million jobs.

“Manufacturing is getting it from every direction,” said Joshua Shapiro, chief U.S. economist at Maria Fiorini Ramirez Inc. in New York. “Domestic demand is falling apart and foreign demand is falling apart.”

The Tempe, Arizona-based ISM’s factory report is due Jan. 2. Readings below 50 indicate contraction.

Regional surveys have already signaled the manufacturing slump persisted this month. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s general economic index fell in December to the lowest level since records began in 2001, and the Philadelphia Fed’s index showed industries in that region contracted for the 12th time in 13 months.

Chicago Index

The Institute for Supply Management-Chicago’s U.S. business activity index, due Dec. 30, is projected to decline to 33, the lowest level since 1982, according to the survey median.

The Standard & Poor’s industrial index is down 37 percent this year, compared with a 32 percent drop in the broader 500 index.

Automakers have been among the hardest hit as sales in November dropped to the lowest level in a quarter century, according to industry figures. President George W. Bush announced Dec. 19 that General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC will get $13.4 billion in initial government loans to keep operating while they restructure operations to return to profitability.

The U.S. recession has spread overseas and that’s hurting foreign demand for American-made goods.

Pittsburgh-based PPG Industries Inc., the world’s second- biggest coatings maker, on Dec. 22 said fourth-quarter earnings will fall more than analysts estimated because the weak global economy is hurting auto-paint and glass sales.

Global Slowdown

“Market softness seen initially in the U.S. industrial markets is now prevalent on a global basis,” Chief Financial Officer William H. Hernandez said in a statement. “Our businesses that serve these industrial end-markets are experiencing significant volume deterioration.”

Economists surveyed by Bloomberg in the first week of December forecast the world’s largest economy will contract through the first half of 2009. The National Bureau of Economic Research on Dec. 1 announced the U.S. fell into a recession a year ago.

The decline in property values that is at the root of the credit crunch probably deepened, another report due on Dec. 30 may show.

The S&P/Case-Shiller index for the 20 largest metropolitan areas will show that home prices fell 17.8 percent in October from a year earlier, the biggest decline since record keeping began in 2001.

Falling home prices make it harder for homeowners to refinance, leading to a surge in foreclosures and weaker consumer spending. Declining stock and home values caused household net worth to drop by a record $2.8 trillion in the third quarter, according to the Fed.

Consumer confidence, meanwhile, may have edged up for a second month in December thanks to plunging gasoline prices. The Conference Board’s gauge, due Dec. 30, rose to 45.5 from 44.9 in November, according to the survey median. The gauge reached a record-low 38.8 in October.

It all still looks pretty bad. On the other hand, low oil prices are helping (even though they're low for very bad reasons) and that mid-2009 date for a recovery keeps coming up in different articles from different sources (Bloomberg, Economist). Maybe they just all got together and decided to promote that date or maybe they're all using the same source but it's somewhat encouraging. That'd be another six months and no one knows how bad the political side is gonna fuck things up during that time but we'll see.

Ignoring the purist Austrian view for a moment here, the monetary measures take some time to work too and we might see some of that in the not too distant future. At least far more likely to be effective than the whole fiscal stimulus stuff.
 
On my personal upside, commodities have been on a slow climb, hopefully they reached a floor last month. Speculation is that things will level out once a new administration takes over and we have a better idea of future ag policy.

Obama's ag pick is certainly of the status quo corporate ag/subsidy school. Which is both good and bad.
 
Economists are notorious for making bad predictions. They kept calling the bottom of the housing market around arbitrary dates: right after the superbowl, right after school lets out for the summer, right after the holidays, etc. etc.

If they can't predict one sector of the economy until it slivers up their arse, I would take anything else they say with an ocean full of salt.
 
Economists are notorious for making bad predictions. They kept calling the bottom of the housing market around arbitrary dates: right after the superbowl, right after school lets out for the summer, right after the holidays, etc. etc.

If they can't predict one sector of the economy until it slivers up their arse, I would take anything else they say with an ocean full of salt.

From what I've seen, this one is actually based (at least partly) on what the markets say, i.e. futures prices indicating that everything's gonna be shit until mid-2009 but it might get better afterwards. Apart from that, while I don't share your apparent hatred of economists (?), I do agree that they usually successfully predict 9 out of the last 5 recessions. ;)
 
From a lending perspective, I've read several reports that it will be mid '09 before things have any degree of liquidity too (at least over here in the UK).

The main and most unpredictable aspect is consumer confidence IMHO. It's very low at the moment, and we've lost another big retail chain today. There's still a lot of fear over redundancy. I'm not sure that can be turned around in 6 months, so maybe it will be the last quarter or even 2010 before any real improvement is seen?
 
Are these the same folks that were predicting $200 barrels of oil by the end of this year??

If so, I'll take anything they say with a grain of salt.
 
I need the housing market to bottom out around April-June of next year.


Until then, keep on falling baby, keep on falling!
 
I need the housing market to bottom out around April-June of next year.


Until then, keep on falling baby, keep on falling!

I think in the UK we'll see prices bottoming out at about 30% less than what was being achieved in late '06.

I dunno how it works over there, but over here I think buyers should just ignore asking prices (people can ask what they like, realistic or not) and put in offers for what they would pay for a property. Example being, we've had a property with an asking price of £139,950 go for £110,000 -- with no real hard negotiation needed.
 
I think I live in one of the few places where prices are still going up. :soma:
Switzerland will probably hold, Liechtenstein will turn nasty. :(
 
I think I live in one of the few places where prices are still going up. :soma:
Switzerland will probably hold, Liechtenstein will turn nasty. :(

I might have been under a bit of a misconception, but I thought a lot of your people had life-long leases anyhoo?
 
I might have been under a bit of a misconception, but I thought a lot of your people had life-long leases anyhoo?

Don't know about life-long (don't think so) but you can't cancel them without a penalty. From what I saw last summer, most of them ranged from 2 years to about 30 years. You re-negotiate them after they expire and you get to choose between variable rates and fixed rates. Probably the same as with you guys but the property market here is one huge bubble - once the whole financial sector finally crashes, market values will come down very, very fast. And that isn't far off, unfortunately. :(
Not entirely sure about how it'll affect "ordinary people" since they usually own the piece of earth the house was built on (that's the insanely expensive part) and the rest is just pretty much what you paid for having the house built. Additionally, you also have to put up a lot more equity than you apparently had to in the U.S..
 
Don't know about life-long (don't think so) but you can't cancel them without a penalty. From what I saw last summer, most of them ranged from 2 years to about 30 years. You re-negotiate them after they expire and you get to choose between variable rates and fixed rates. Probably the same as with you guys but the property market here is one huge bubble - once the whole financial sector finally crashes, market values will come down very, very fast. And that isn't far off, unfortunately. :(
Not entirely sure about how it'll affect "ordinary people" since they usually own the piece of earth the house was built on (that's the insanely expensive part) and the rest is just pretty much what you paid for having the house built. Additionally, you also have to put up a lot more equity than you apparently had to in the U.S..

Well, over here, we have two main tenures -- freehold and leasehold (there's commonhold as well, but that's a bit more complicated and all tenures are twisted up with common law and equity). Most people are freeholders (i.e. they own the land and building) with mortgage finance (meaning the lender has dibs on the property until the mortgage is discharged and then it is transferred ownership to the purchaser in full). Apartment owners are leasehold, so in effect their exclusive possession is only for a little bit of the overall property and the freehold remains with the developer. Leasehold is usually for something stoopid, like 99 or 999 years. Then there's other bits like easements over the property you own.

Is that like your system, or do you mean it is a case of freeholding the land but leaseholding the building?
 
Mid '09 would be about right. That is around the time I'll be running out of money and will be forced to work for the Marines again. As soon as I leave the job market, there will be jobs everywhere. :evil:
 
Well, over here, we have two main tenures -- freehold and leasehold (there's commonhold as well, but that's a bit more complicated and all tenures are twisted up with common law and equity). Most people are freeholders (i.e. they own the land and building) with mortgage finance (meaning the lender has dibs on the property until the mortgage is discharged and then it is transferred ownership to the purchaser in full). Apartment owners are leasehold, so in effect their exclusive possession is only for a little bit of the overall property and the freehold remains with the developer. Leasehold is usually for something stoopid, like 99 or 999 years. Then there's other bits like easements over the property you own.

Is that like your system, or do you mean it is a case of freeholding the land but leaseholding the building?

You remind my why I didn't particularly enjoy this shit. :lol: (Not that it wasn't fun...)

What you cal "freeholders" is probably what's most common around here too. I'm not sure how exactly your stuff works but I'm pretty sure it's the same (the borrower owns everything but the property serves as collateral). Now, the leasehold seems a bit more fucked up. From what I can tell, we have two different things that fit into what you're describing there. One, apartment owners get some shit like 120/1000 of the land for their apartment and then an additional 16/1000 (just making up random numbers) for their parking spot but from what I can tell, they actually own it (at least it serves as collateral for the bank, so the collateral will be something like "a) the apartment, b) 120/1000 of parcel xyz (or more precisely: "ownership of a particular story of a building" (seriously, I looked it up) #1234 and then you go look at the official document and there it says "ownership of a particular story of a building #1234: 120/1000 of parcel xyz" and additionally you get the 16/1000 for the parking spot). On the other hand, there are also cases (very few, I went through maybe 2000 and came across something like a dozen) were a local government (council) leases the land to some guy for 99 years.
:unsure:
 
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