Halp Us Jon Cary Stuc Hear in Irak!

[eloisel]

Give me an example of what you are inferring. What UN standards aren't we following? How are we not getting along?

 

[Tyrant]

You tell me.

Oh, wait - the UN would just commandeer the US to fix Mexico so we might as well just figure out the solution and get it over with.

What did you mean by this?

 

[eloisel]

The UN is made up of member countries, and the US is a charter member. The UN would send the US to Mexico on a humanitarian relief mission.

Now, what countries are getting along just fine living up to UN standards that we aren't living up to?

 

[eloisel]

On issues of pollution, have you read the Kyoto Protocol/Treaty?

 

[Ogami]

It seems that countries like China and India are exempt from its provisions. Naturally, they signed it.

 

[Tyrant]

Now, what countries are getting along just fine living up to UN standards that we aren't living up to?

Torture.

The UN is a complicated subject, so I'll let the Republobots hijack it for the time being while I recuse myself for tonight. You've been a good sport.

Ogami Republicans stand for truth, justice, the American way, and apple pie

In theory, Communism was to bring about everlasting peace and prosperity in the worker's paradise. In theory.

 

[eloisel]

I'm all for cleaning up the planet. We live here. However, the Kyoto Treaty does no such thing. The people that do sign the treaty and promise to curb their pollutants can get around it by buying emission credits from a number of countries that don't produce much pollution. It is a means for 3rd world countries to make money by selling emission credits they don't need to industrial countries that will just keep on polluting. Beside, there is no teeth to the thing. So what if a country doesn't keep its promise and doesn't buy extra credits? No sanctions, no fines, nothing. Big whoop. In effect, this treaty just pays undeveloped countries to stay undeveloped and dependent on foreign aid.

 

[dogbert]

"Jenny, they sendin' me to Vietnam." - Forrest Gump

I've read on many occasions how the draft started hauling in very poorly trained, poorly qualified soldiers in Vietnam's later years. This was a complaint of the professional, volunteer military at the quality of many 'shake n bake' LTs sent to them as the casualties mounted. I'm certain this is what Kerry was thinking of, that was his generation, there's no reason for him to change his views.

Today's military, however, is highly educated, professional, and all-volunteer. There are a lot of ROTC candidates that will be coming in at high rank or going on to OCS to become officers. That would make these people uneducated but working feverishly to be educated while in service.

Kerry is stuck in a 60s time warp, it's safe to say. And his comments about our soldiers in Iraq have been echoed by the left since 2003. The respect isn't there from the left, the Democrats. It's just lip service.

-Ogami

And what respect do the republicans have when they send you into a war based upon lies?

 

[eloisel]

Torture.

The UN is a complicated subject, so I'll let the Republobots hijack it for the time being while I recuse myself for tonight. You've been a good sport.

In theory, Communism was to bring about everlasting peace and prosperity in the worker's paradise. In theory.

Wait, wait ... you don't get off that easy! Tell me what countries don't "torture." And, describe the official U.S. gov't sanctioned methods of torture that military persons are using and did not get arrested and convicted for.

In theory, Communism could bring about everlasting peace and prosperity. The problem is in practice there is no reward for work. Consumer based societies work because there is reward for work. The solution is wealth distribution. Take for example the United States. We have an awesome workforce. We have stores and warehouses full of all kinds of goods - cars, bread, cheese, grains, fruit, meat, beer, toilet paper, medical care, violins, etc... You can get a house - brand spanking new or used - pretty darned quick. All you've got to have is money or credit. Say the distribution method is changed, all a person has to do to get anything they want is to work - it doesn't matter at what as long as it is useful to the community. The warehouses and stores wouldn't be so full but with our workforce, the supply of goods would be replenished often enough to keep us satisfied. Communism and Consumerism could blend successfully and bring about everlasting peace and prosperity.

I'm not much in for debating, but I do like discussing these subjects. Please come back and play some more.

 

[Tyrant]

Wait, wait ... you don't get off that easy!

Yes I do. I don't want to be involved in this tonight.

As for the Communism part that was meant to illustrate how one thing can be advertised as being something on paper yet something completely different in practice, like Ogami's statement about what the Republican party stands for. But I will return.

I'm not much in for debating, but I do like discussing these subjects. Please come back and play some more.

It's not 'playing.' Lives are at stake when your opinion is able to sway elected leaders.

 

[Sarek]

A good chunk of my company has volunteered to go to Afghanistan. Apparently Iraq is a less-favorite destination, far fewer volunteers for that.

That could be due to the fact that you're about 50 times more likely to get killed in Iraq than in Afghanistan. But then, if you were in the military, you'd know that.

I asked why this was, aren't there people trying to kill you in both? I would think the soldiers in Iraq are awaiting relief rotations as much as those in Afghanistan.

Probably more so as the Bush administration isn't as concerned about Afghanistan as they are about Iraq. In fact, I've heard very little about forced tour extensions in Afghanistan where it's every day news for Iraq. Again, common knowledge if you are in or associated with the military in pretty mush any way.

I guess they need the manpower to control the mess Bush has created in Iraq more then it's needed for the hunt for Al Quada.

Even if news travels quickly to Iraq, as we see here.

Of course it does. Especially when it can be contorted and used to try and help sway public opinion before a national election.

 

[eloisel]

Yes I do. I don't want to be involved in this tonight.

As for the Communism part that was meant to illustrate how one thing can be advertised as being something on paper yet something completely different in practice, like Ogami's statement about what the Republican party stands for. But I will return.

It's not 'playing.' Lives are at stake when your opinion is able to sway elected leaders.

I'm glad to read my opinion has so much impact. Let me get to it then.

IMNSHO -

• 
  the work week should be cut from 40 hours to 20 with higher wages. That way more people are employed and have money to spend on their days off to keep the money spreading around.

• every licensed driver should receive a brand new car every year or receive a detail and overhaul on their car every year if they want to keep their present car.

• every household should have a housekeeper, cook, yard man, mechanic and pool boy - even the housekeeper, cook, yard man, mechanic and pool boy.

• science should be funded to discover a way to give each individual a new body every 50 years, preferably one custom designed. I'd like mine to be very tall, be able to leap tall buildings as well as dive to great ocean depths without needing oxygen, and be without fear of heights or the very dark and wet.

• the automobile that runs on H2O should be a reality.

• wars should be fought in the mountains between Pakistan and Afghanistan by Japanese robots remote controlled by the winners of international video games contests with the winning robot receiving a trophy, a blurb in a game player's magazine, and a lifetime of delivered pizza and Mountain Dew as the spoils of war

 

[Sarek]

At my company formation today a color printout of this famous picture was making the rounds. Apparently I am not the only soldier to believe John Kerry meant to insult the American troops as uneducated and presumedly stupid, just as he has done his entire life.

Why would a Reserve unit be meeting on a Friday? I'm asking because Guard and Reserve units traditionally meet on Saturdays and Sundays. And I admit, something about your military claims don't ring true.

There are reasons for a Friday drill, but it's not something that's usually done unless there's a specific reason.

The reason this "idle comment" won't go away is that Kerry is speaking for a vast majority of Democrat party officials, representatives, and senators who also feel our soldiers are war criminals and destroying an innocent country. After all, our soldiers like to torture too, right?

No he's not. The reason it won't go away is because the Republican party is going to milk it for all it's worth and do as you have and claim it's a blanket example of the Democrats views on the military. Anyone with half a brain is going to realize that there is no possible way that that is the way the Democrats feel.

Here's an interesting little tidbit I found. What do you think about it? If the Republicans are so supportive of the military. Why did so many in prominent positions choose not to serve?

Republicans --

Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

Tom Delay: did not serve.

Roy Blunt: did not serve.

Bill Frist: did not serve.

Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

Rick Santorum: did not serve.

Trent Lott: did not serve.

John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

Jeb Bush: did not serve.

Karl Rove: did not serve.

Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.

Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

Vin Weber: did not serve.

Richard Perle: did not serve.

Douglas Feith: did not serve.

Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

Richard Shelby: did not serve.

Jon! Kyl: did not serve.

Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

Christopher Cox: did not serve.

Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.

Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non- combat role making movies.

B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm: did not serve.

John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

John M. McHugh: did not serve.

JC Watts: did not serve.

Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem, " although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback.

Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.

Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

George Pataki: did not serve.

Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

John Engler: did not serve.

Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.

Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Pundits & Preachers

Sean Hannity: did not serve.

Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

Michael Savage: did not serve.

George Will: did not serve.

Chris Matthews: did not serve.

Paul Gigot: did not serve.

Bill Bennett: did not serve.

Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

John Wayne: did not serve.

Bill Kristol: did not serve.

Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

Ralph Reed: did not serve.





And yet, your "vast majority of Democrat party officials, representatives, and senators" who feel military service is for idiots actually served.

Democrats in the Military:

Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army ournalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries. Served in Congress.

Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.

Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars,and Soldier's Medal.

Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.

Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.

Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

Chuck Robb: Vietnam

Howell Heflin: Silver Star

George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.

Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.

Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters.

Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.

Kerry spoke his honest opinion, it was not a joke, and it's a view held by a good chunk of his party. And if that's wrong, well then the soldiers of my reserve company must be stupid, too. Right Kerry?

-Ogami

No, it was a joke, his party knows it was a joke, (yes, a blundered one and in poor taste, but a joke nonetheless) and the only stupid person in your "Reserve Company" is you.

I can smell the stench of bullshit emanating from your direction Ogami. And I'm calling you on it.

 

[Sarek]

On a side not, under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which states, (again, if you were in the military, you would know)

ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

These officers could face criminal charges for there little display. But the official stance of the Army is that it was a "joke"

http://www.startribune.com/587/story/783407.html

Capt. J. Elaine Hunnicutt, a spokeswoman in the Joint Operations Center in Iraq, confirmed in an e-mail that the soldiers in the photo were from the Minnesota Guard.

"The soldiers' intent in taking this photo was meant as a humorous response to the current debate in the media, and the command recognizes it as such," she wrote. "This was not a political statement, and we do not want it to become one or put our soldiers in a compromising position."

Can you imagine what would happen to a soldier if he spoke or displayed a negative attitude about a Republican leader right now? Yeah, he’d be hung out to dry. SO there’s a reason troops aren’t speaking out about Bush until after they get out.

 

[Tyrant]

Since when are you involved, regardless?

Elaborate.

 

[Ogami]

Sarek wrote:

That could be due to the fact that you're about 50 times more likely to get killed in Iraq than in Afghanistan. But then, if you were in the military, you'd know that.

Most of my company are Iraq veterans, and they are very much alive. I highly value their input since they were there, and Afghanistan, and many other places reservists are deployed.

As for the likelihood of being killed, there are many highways where your odds of dying are greater than if you're walking around Baghdad.

Probably more so as the Bush administration isn't as concerned about Afghanistan as they are about Iraq. In fact, I've heard very little about forced tour extensions in Afghanistan where it's every day news for Iraq. Again, common knowledge if you are in or associated with the military in pretty mush any way.

What's your problem? It must really irk you to no longer have a monopoly on being TK's military authority. Worse, you cannot shut me up by invoking your hallowed status. I appreciate your service to our country, but my opinion is no less valid than yours. Sorry to spoil your mood.

I guess they need the manpower to control the mess Bush has created in Iraq more then it's needed for the hunt for Al Quada.

One of the best news sources I've found is the British magazine The Economist. Their perspective is that the American people may punish Bush and the GOP for the Iraq war, yet to cut-and-run is no answer in their opinion, and would be the greater crime. They believe it would be a bloodbath of civilians were we to leave Iraq right now, and I agree.

Should the Democrats take control of congress, I sincerely hope this will mollify their overall tone towards one of genuinely working with the president in how to administer Iraq. Let them investigate Halliburton all they want, I don't care. I just don't want to see the Iraqi people pay the price upon a Democrat victory.

Why would a Reserve unit be meeting on a Friday? I'm asking because Guard and Reserve units traditionally meet on Saturdays and Sundays. And I admit, something about your military claims don't ring true.

Now I'm really beginning to wonder about your own claims to being retired military. Anyone who has actually been in the military would know what a MUTA 6 is. Since you don't, Google it.

In case you haven't noticed, I have not used my military service to trump any argument, any time, ever. You, on the other hand, bray non-stop about your military service, like it's some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card whenever your opinion just won't cut it. Why should it matter? Is it really so hard for you to comprehend that someone else can be in the military and not share your bitter views?

I am proud to serve, and have keen interest in any issue that affects the military or our national defense. As for proving my service to you, Sarek, I have nothing to prove to you. I like posting here and finding out the national (and international) mood about politics, that's all. I certainly don't need your support or approval.

No, it was a joke, his party knows it was a joke, (yes, a blundered one and in poor taste, but a joke nonetheless) and the only stupid person in your "Reserve Company" is you.

LOL You wet fart. You don't even know what a MUTA 6 is, which some might say raises into question your claims of military service. I simply don't care, unless you have some war stories you can share with us, or genuine heartfelt advice on deploying.

Liberal Democrats on the internet (or those independents who simply don't like the GOP but agree with the Dems on everything) don't have a good track record with me. I am always honest about my views and opinions, that's all they are, opinions. Yet liberals always make it personal, go after me personally, because they can't stand the notion that someone can accurately refute their arguments, with facts, links, and entire articles and news stories.

I can smell the stench of bullshit emanating from your direction Ogami. And I'm calling you on it.

To the liberal mind, any personal information freely given is simply a weapon to be viciously hurled back. In this case, I can say I am a soldier and am proud to be one, but that's just one more fact that you can use against me. It diminishes me and emboldens you, so what's the point? If the soldiers I know agreed with the Democrat spin on this, I'd tell you. I don't care, I'm not running for office. But in this case, they do get the joke Kerry intended on them. And it's no different than his testimony in the 70s describing his fellow soldiers as war criminals and murderous thugs. I don't agree with that, and I'm not stupid for thinking so.

I am stupid for thinking hate-crazed leftists like Sarek have the slightest maturity, and for that I happily take full blame.

-Ogami

 

[Tyrant]

Ogami blathered:

Articles, columns, actual discussion. Not seeing a lot from you, just one-sentence soundbites.

Then you're a liar, or just n00blet shite which knows nothing about what I may or may not contribute to this forum. If you don't see it, it's your problem.

If you're offended that I'm not quoting and responding to your empty rhetoric, which is usually a bunch of hot wind stemming from misunderstanding what I or someone else may have posted, tough.

 

[Tyrant]

Just prove me wrong, it's all I ask.

We've attempted to show the light on many occasions. You'll simply call the whatever source might be cited as a crazy leftwing rag.

We need more content around here, I liked your Kennedy article.

Thanks, but what some might infer from that is you want more anti-Democrat stuff. Not that I care about partisanism.

 

[Sarek]

MUTA 6 is the Army equivalent to an Air Force RUTA. It's making up a drill weekend that was missed or rescheduled. And if you had read my statement, I said very clearly that there were circumstances for it.

That being said, I have a basic understanding of the Guard and Reserve system because I WAS ACTIVE DUTY. I just served part of my active duty time as an AGR on a guard base.

 

[Ogami]

Was that your apology, Sarek? I don't see it buried in there. I rather think that instead of me seeming suspicious, you are exhibiting some rather silly paranoia.

On a quarterly basis my company is in MUTA 6, normally we are in MUTA 4. I have to be in bed in precisely one hour and 45 minutes because I've got to drive to my company in the morning. Friday we conducted the APFT for those who didn't take it last month, today we drew TA-50, and tomorrow we go to the range and practice on multiple targets at 25m. Yet I take a few minutes between those busy days to chat with you and your laughable insults. Happy?

-Ogami