Is anybody watching this Presidential Debate?

[eloisel]

I thought Obama's new advertisement today was interesting. Paraphrasing - the debate was 90 minutes long and McCain did not mention the middle class even once. Okay. The debate was on foreign policy.

I have to agree that McCain and Obama pretty much tied in this debate. What that translates to, though, is McCain actually lost. That is because McCain is 26 years experienced to Obama's 2 so McCain should have knocked this out of the park. Obama, while showing strong in some areas, came off as a complete dufus kiss-ass overall. Two more debates for both of them to make a better showing. More than likely the VP debates will be the deciding factor in this election. Biden is stupid. Palin is just plain scary.

 

[eloisel]

Try answering the questions instead of going on about something totally different. I said Bush senior didn't finish the job in Iraq and oust Saddamin 91. You went off about how Osama was our friend in 91.

As we attacked Iraq in 91, I'm failing to see what Bush senior's friendship with Osama had to do with my question. Did Osama have tea with Bush and ask him not burn his buddy Saddam at the stake or something? Of course, that would have later tied Bush Jr's claims that Bin Laden and Saddam were buds that planned 9/11 together. And we all know that was bullshit.

Are you truly this dense?

First, I responded to your remark with a remark of my own.

Second, I answered your question.

Now, this is another remark on what you subsequently posted:

Osama and Bush senior were not enemies at that time. Osama was our bud against Russians in Afghanistan. Saddam was our bud in our problems with Iran. Saddam bankrupted Iraq with his war on Iran. We - meaning the US, and some of our other allies - gave Saddam WMDs. Saddam invaded Kuwait - claiming Kuwait was also Iraqi territory - to get the oil to sell to fund his continuing war on Iran. Saudi Arabia was not comfortable with Saddam invading the tiny country of Kuwait which is right next to Saudia Arabia. This is where things got sticky with Osama. Osama - who is Saudi - wanted the royals to pay him or allow him and his fighters to take on Saddam but the Saudi royals paid us - meaning the US - to get Saddam out of Kuwait. Osama is one of those Muslims that doesn't want the infidels messing with other muslims - even if he wants to kill those muslims himself - and he doesn't want infidels on Saudi land.

What happened with Saddam is he was a saber rattler and he wouldn't comply with weapons inspections. Yes, he pretended to comply at times but if you ever read the weapons inspections reports you would balk at that crap. Time after time the inspectors would go to a sight and ask to see the destruction of the weapons that had been reported stored at that sight only to be told that those weapons had already been destroyed during the Gulf War or in an accident or before the inspector arrived. The inspector would just note that and go on to the next site. Granted, some of the missing stuff was like those lame half working scuds that Saddam launched there near his own end. And, some of that stuff had a short shelf life. But, I can't help but wonder how much of that chemical crap wound up on the black market. Plus, I think if Bush and his cronies deliberately lied about WMDs, some squad arriving early into Iraq would have found WMDs - even if they had to plant the WMDs themselves. I think it is possible they exaggerated the threat level of what Saddam had to justify going in after him. However, I think toppling Saddam was a good thing to do. I think Al Qaida thought Saddam had those WMDs too and they wanted them. There was no love lost between Saddam and Osama.

Saddam extended the olive branch to us back after 9/11. If we'd have worked it right back then, we could have patched up things with Saddam, given him the opportunity to right his wrongs, and accorded at least a temporary peace between us and that region. Hind sight is 20/20.

 

[Sarek]

So in effect, Osama's attacks on the USS Cole, the U.S. African embassies, the first WTC and 9/11 are Bush Seniors fault for pissing him off in the first place.

Does this mean you guys will stop blaming Clinton now?

 

[eloisel]

Do you ever actually win an argument because you are correct instead of you just argue longer than the person you are arguing with cares to argue?

It isn't Bush senior's fault that Saddam invaded Kuwait. It isn't Bush seniors fault that the Saudi royals did not want Osama to fight with Saddam - which I'm sure they had good reasons of their own for. The attacks on the Cole, embassies and 1st WTC bombing were on Clinton's watch. It was his responsibility - and something he swore to do when he took the oath of office - to do something about a clear and present danger. If the politicos would put the effort they expend trying to destroy each other into working with each other maybe Bill would have had his mind off the blue dress and the cigar and on the problem of Osama.

Frankly, Sarek, I only find it somewhat amusing that you and I agree on so much and yet you wish to take the adversarial position with me on everything.

Just in case you want to fight about it, it is going to be a sunshiney day in my part of the world tomorrow. I'm going to blame George Bush for it.

 

[Sarek]

Do you ever actually win an argument because you are correct instead of you just argue longer than the person you are arguing with cares to argue?

Whatever works.

It isn't Bush senior's fault that Saddam invaded Kuwait. It isn't Bush seniors fault that the Saudi royals did not want Osama to fight with Saddam - which I'm sure they had good reasons of their own for.

The bottom line is this. The only reason Bush Sr. got involved was the oil. If Kuwait was an oil barren country, he would have told the Saudi's to take a flying leap.

The attacks on the Cole, embassies and 1st WTC bombing were on Clinton's watch. It was his responsibility - and something he swore to do when he took the oath of office - to do something about a clear and present danger.

I wonder how that argument will play out when Bush is out of office and Osama is still on the loose. I'm sure the conservatives will cry that he did everything he could to get him, but shit happens.

If the politicos would put the effort they expend trying to destroy each other into working with each other maybe Bill would have had his mind off the blue dress and the cigar and on the problem of Osama.

What? A guy can't multitask?

Frankly, Sarek, I only find it somewhat amusing that you and I agree on so much and yet you wish to take the adversarial position with me on everything.

I don't think we agree on a whole lot at all. You've already demonstrated in the abortion discussion that free will and freedom of choice don't have a place in your world. Personal freedoms are a fundamental right in this country and I've watched the conservatives slowly whittle away at them in the name of national security.

Just in case you want to fight about it, it is going to be a sunshiney day in my part of the world tomorrow. I'm going to blame George Bush for it.

I'll blame Clinton. It'll drive the conservatives to suicide.

 

[Alyssum]

What the hell did Osama have to do with 9/11?

Oh right...that's the single bullet theory thingie innit (Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, etc)

There's a REASON we haven't found Bin Laden, kids. The same reason we're in Iraq instead of Afghanistan.

 

[eloisel]

I don't think we agree on a whole lot at all. You've already demonstrated in the abortion discussion that free will and freedom of choice don't have a place in your world. Personal freedoms are a fundamental right in this country and I've watched the conservatives slowly whittle away at them in the name of national security.

Oh, I agree that the people who murder their children should retain that right because I remember what that type of person did before abortion was made legal. Besides, it is historical that humans murder their children - before the child is born or shortly after they are born - for all kinds of reasons. Where you and I differ is that I think you ought to call it what it is - murder - instead of acting like the person is just clipping a toenail.

Where you and I disagree on personal freedoms - and on free speech for that matter - is that in your view those things are only for you and those who agree with you.

 

[eloisel]

What the hell did Osama have to do with 9/11?

Little early for you? Haven't had your coffee yet?

 

[Sarek]

Oh, I agree that the people who murder their children should retain that right because I remember what that type of person did before abortion was made legal. Besides, it is historical that humans murder their children - before the child is born or shortly after they are born - for all kinds of reasons. Where you and I differ is that I think you ought to call it what it is - murder - instead of acting like the person is just clipping a toenail.

Again, you refuse to understand what I'm saying. I don't condone abortion and I don't think it would be a choice that I would choose.

However, I don't feel that I have the right to force my moral and ethical values on someone else when it pertains to their body. A woman has the right to choose what she does with her body. And for the record, I also think prostitution should be legalized. Women in the porn industry are making a killing at it. But they get away with it for the most part because the government has their fingers in the coffers.

Frankly, it's also pretty shitty that you seem to think that the only reason a woman would get an abortion is because she was a slut and doesn't want the kid.

Where you and I disagree on personal freedoms - and on free speech for that matter - is that in your view those things are only for you and those who agree with you.

Really? Would you care to point out an example of that? Everyone has an opinion. But no one has the right to force that opinion on someone else. I may not agree with what you say, but I won't stop you from saying it.

 

[eloisel]

Again, you refuse to understand what I'm saying. I don't condone abortion and I don't think it would be a choice that I would choose.

Again, you refuse to understand what I posted - repeatedly - that I take issue with people who use abortion as a form of birth control. I have never advocated that abortion should be denied to women who need one for medical reasons. Maybe you are like Jack and refuse to acknowledge that prior to Roe v. Wade many women lied and said they had been raped in order to get a legal abortion. Furthermore, many women died or caused great damage to themselves when getting illegal abortions performed by back alley butchers. But, it hasn't fit yours or Jack's bitch to acknowledge what I said but pervert it to fit your position.

FYI - I repeatedly posted that I do not advocate overturning Roe v. Wade or the companion suits that define the laws concerning abortion at this time.

However, I don't feel that I have the right to force my moral and ethical values on someone else when it pertains to their body. A woman has the right to choose what she does with her body.

I'm not forcing my moral and ethical values on anyone. They are still killing their babies, aren't they?

Frankly, it's also pretty shitty that you seem to think that the only reason a woman would get an abortion is because she was a slut and doesn't want the kid.

And, I think you are pretty naive to believe that all these abortions are because of medical reasons, incest or rape. Even the statistics Jack threw up as validation of his argument showed that just isn't the case - only 1% of the abortions performed yearly are for medical reasons, incest or rape. Most of the abortions were a result of the person found using birth control on a regular basis was just inconvenient or that the pregnancy at that time was inconvenient. All I'm asking is that people admit why they kill their babies. Maybe if people quit fooling themselves about what they are doing they might develop a respect for life and practice birth control before they have an unwanted pregnancy.

Did you see the bit from Cybil Shepherd where she - also a rabid "pro-choice don't tell women what to do with their body" person - wants to know if Bristol Palin was given a choice concerning her pregnancy? She wasn't asking if Bristol Palin was given the choice to carry her pregnancy to term, to keep her baby. She was asking if Bristol Palin was given the choice to kill her baby. Is it really so hard to believe that a person who is pregnant at an inconvenient time might want their baby, and value the life of that unborn person?

Really? Would you care to point out an example of that? Everyone has an opinion. But no one has the right to force that opinion on someone else. I may not agree with what you say, but I won't stop you from saying it.

Bull shit. The only reason why you don't stop me from posting what I will is because you can't.

 

[Alyssum]

Little early for you? Haven't had your coffee yet?

Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald (acting alone) shot Kennedy in the back of the head from the second floor of the Book Depository?

Because then you would believe that Osama Bin Laden was the cause of 9/11, which is why we're chasing him around in Iraq all these years, right?

 

[Alyssum]

That's because Al Qaida is really in Iraq, right?

 

[Alyssum]

I don't know if you were listening to the radio that morning or watching TV, but the initial report said a fucking TRUCK drove into the front door of the Pentagon and exploded.

 

[eloisel]

Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald (acting alone) shot Kennedy in the back of the head from the second floor of the Book Depository?

Personally, don't care at this point in my life.

Because then you would believe that Osama Bin Laden was the cause of 9/11, which is why we're chasing him around in Iraq all these years, right?

I don't think we are chasing Osama around in Iraq. However, I do think Osama bin Laden is the driving force behind the attacks on September 11th.

Bush said he had intel of Saddam/Iraq having a relationship with Al Qaida. There is lots of intel that makes that a true statement. Bush also said he did not believe Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with the events of September 11th, 2001. There is lots of intel that makes that a true statement also. Are you capable of understanding that those two statements do not translate into "Bush said Saddam worked with Al Qaida to orchestrate the events of September 11, 2001?"

If you do not believe that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida are responsible for the events of September 11, 2001, please tell me who you do believe is.

 

[Alyssum]

Well, I think about what Hitler did, the orchestrated Reichstag Fire, and the resulting tumult and I find it eerily similar.

I don't know if you watched the movie on what happened inside the building, but you can hear all these explosions when the building is coming down.

The way those towers collapsed was the SAME as a demolition.

"The Reichstag fire was a disaster for Communists because they received the blame for starting it, but it was a dream come true for Hitler and his cohorts as it allowed them to turn Germany into a dictatorship.

Did the Bush administration try the same trick on September 11, 2001?

The victims of the 9/11 attacks have been disaster for Muslims because 19 Arabs were named as hijackers of the planes, but they've been a dream come true for the PNAC 'think-tank' whose 2000 Statement of Principles stated a "catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" would advance their policies, i.e. justify wars and "regime changes".

 

[Alyssum]

You don't think the Patriot Act is a form of fascism?

 

[eloisel]

I don't know if you were listening to the radio that morning or watching TV, but the initial report said a fucking TRUCK drove into the front door of the Pentagon and exploded.

I do not remember a report of that kind. However, I, like many Americans, watched the horror of 9/11 on TV for months afterwards. These years later, this is what I remember the most - the people jumping or falling from the upper floors of the burning towers. I remember the sound of their bodies hitting the roof and the ground around the staging area on the ground floor where the reporters were tryiing to get information from the firefighters about what was going on. I remember the looks on the faces of the firefighters when they realized what that sound was and that it was being picked up on the reporter's microphone.

I remember the video clip of Osama speaking about how he did not expect there to be so much damage. He expected the planes to hit and cause destruction but he did not expect them to bring both towers down and kill all those people. He thought that was a bonus from Allah.

So far as your claim of the initial report that it was a truck explosion at the Pentagon on 9/11, the news media is guilty of reporting news that hasn't been vetted yet simply so they can be the first to report that news. Perhaps you will recall Dan Rather reporting that James Brady had been killed in the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. I haven't found a reference online to such a report that it was a truck explosion at the Pentagon on 9/11.

 

[eloisel]

I also remember the Palestinians celebrating in the streets over the tragedy of September 11 and even them attributing the action to Osama bin Laden at that early date.

 

[eloisel]

You don't think the Patriot Act is a form of fascism?

I don't agree with you on that.

I think that the Patriot Act was originally drafted to address the needs of a specific emergency - i.e., 9/11 - and appropriately had an expiration date. I think that the process was utilized to rectify the flaws in that Act. I think that the Act can undergo further refinement to keep its broad powers in finding out those who would cause great harm to us but also protect the civil liberties of the individual.

Yes, the Act allows greater discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities to detain and deport immigrants suspected of terroristic acts. However, the Act also expands the definition of terrorism to include domestic acts of terrorism so therefore is not limited to just immigrants and, therefore, not facist.

 

[Alyssum]

The Associated Press first reported that a booby-trapped truck had caused the explosion. The Pentagon quickly denied this.