my last shred of faith in humanity is gone.

Yub

Anachrophobic
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Problems [as if it weren't completely obviously, well it is but I'm going to say so anyway, shut up you BOOHATS]

  • Khan obviously a better villain in a choice between him and any Trek villain you care to name.
  • The Borg aren't villainous. They are driven to an ideological goal, unhampered by a moral construct to order to achieve, in their view. Villainy implies hate or anger, evil. The Borg certainly aren't evil. They may be deluded and selfish...but villains? Evil? WTF?

People are stupid.
 

Eggs Mayonnaise

All In With The Nuts
Once they fucked up the concept of the Borg by bringing in Lore as the Fagin to their Dickensian pickpockets, and then killed the concept outright by personifying the Borg with a Queen, they became mere villains.
 

whisky

Boobie inspector
Then voyager pissed on what was left of their dignity, making them the least threatening ongoing menace to the main characters since Sheriff Rosco P Coltrane.
 

CaptainWacky

I want to smell dark matter
Weyoun is the best villain anyway.
 

Eggs Mayonnaise

All In With The Nuts
Even though he has no aesthetic taste.
 

Ilyanna

moral imperfection
If the Borg are villains, then Q is, as well. And then, he's the best.

(No, I am not trying to provoke Yub into going postal, even if it looks like it.)
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
IMHO, Khan wasn't even a villain. He was something of a despot, sure, and he was strict to the point of being a ruthless dictator in STII, but look at his motivation. Marooned and left for dead on a miserable hellhole for the crime of...being kickass smart and tough...Khan watched his loved ones die painful deaths basically because Kirk forgot he was out there. He was not only justified in hating that cocky bastard Kirk, but who among us would not have done the exact same thing in that situation, when Chekhov stumbled onto him and handed him the opportunity. Stuck on a rock, no chance of longterm survival, most of your people dead...you do what you HAVE to to get them outta there, even if it means a couple of incidental deaths of the people who FUCKING PUT YOU THERE TO START WITH.

And aside from some posturing and brandishing of his well-oiled manly chest, what did "villain Khan" really do in the end?
How about:

1. Saved his people using all his intellect, guile and skills (just like Kirk would and did many times)
2. Stole a world creation device and used it, horror of horrors, to create a world (remember, Khan set the thing off, not Kirk)
3. Became the one and only reason Spock survived to go on and fuck with Romulans, save some whales, meet God, and turn himself accidentally into that guy from Heroes. That's right, he saved one of his own enemies, thereby negating the fact he had killed him in the first place.

I would argue that not only was Khan NOT a villain, but that he should have been given a Nobel prize for successfully testing a device to create life and save the existence of one of the greatest diplomats of that universe. What did Kirk ever do in comparison to that? Shoot some Klingons? Fuck a couple of green chicks? Hell, I did that at a comic convention once, you don't see anybody worshipping my old ass...(although I did help one of the green chicks see god, so I have that going for me)
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
headvoid said:
good arguement, you could almost be a troll
What's a troll?:smfangel:
 

headvoid

Can I have Ops?
I think "Why Khan was better for the universe than Kirk" is an excellent start point for a thread.
 

Yub

Anachrophobic
Intent. Khan's intent was murder and revenge.

Khan set off the device to kill Kirk, not save anybody. The fact that Spock's coffin landed on the Genesis planet was a fluke. You cannot claim that Spock's rebirth can be attributed to Khan. You might has well credit the guy hundreds of years ago who thought "AH! We'll chuck this dead body overboard instead of ferrying it home and give it a fancy name...like "burial at sea"...ooo that sounds good..this is sooo much better than having a stinky corpse on board." for Spock's rebirth as much as credit Khan.
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
Intent. Khan's intent was murder and revenge.

Khan set off the device to kill Kirk, not save anybody. The fact that Spock's coffin landed on the Genesis planet was a fluke. You cannot claim that Spock's rebirth can be attributed to Khan. You might has well credit the guy hundreds of years ago who thought "AH! We'll chuck this dead body overboard instead of ferrying it home and give it a fancy name...like "burial at sea"...ooo that sounds good..this is sooo much better than having a stinky corpse on board." for Spock's rebirth as much as credit Khan.

Except for the following, very salient points:

1. Khan, as I detailed above, had every right to be harboring murderous rage at Kirk. His original sin in the TOS was basically to briefly comandeer Kirk's ship after Kirk woke his ass up from deep space slumber. Again, given his circumstances, an understandable reaction if not entirely aboveboard. Yet, of the DOZENS of races and persons who have successfully commandeered the Enterprise, ONLY Khan was subjected to a life sentence that at best equalled a hard life of backbreaking farming labor and probable early hardship and starvation, without benefit of technology, infrastucture, or even a sustainable population. EVEN had Seti Alpha not exploded, the chances for survival on the world were slim. Kirk had to have known that, which is why he conveniently never went back. Consider the reverse: Khan keeps the enterprise and maroons several hundred crewmen and Kirk on the same planet. After years of watching his people die on that rock, do you not think Kirk would have had murder in his eyes if Khan acccidentally wanered back into his phaser sights? Hell, THAT guy held a grudge over tribbles!

2. The detonation of the device, no matter what the motivation, would never have been carried out if Khan hadn't done it himself. Don't forget, Kirk and his ex and his kid spent most of the film arguing over whether anyone SHOULD detonate it, and without Khan would likely have remained in stalemate for years while everyone involved got oleder, the project lost funding, or some other factor rendered it obsolete. By detonating it on his own, Khan not only circumvented the entire tedious whiny argument but exposed key flaws in the device, which no doubt saved countless lives down the road. The fact that he got to kill his despised (and justifiably so) enemy was only gravy for his potatoes. Like he himself said, it was worth dying just to take out his hated enemy Kirk. This sentiment was echoed by KIRK himself on a number of occasions, for example in Generations when he allows himself to get killed in order to take out Malcolm McDowell and his dying question is "Did we get that fucker?"

3. Even if you disregard that Khan's actions provided the catalyst to save Spock, the fact is he didn't even kill him to start with.Spock committed selfless suicide by going in to fix the broken radioactive doohickey, and his situation had nothing to do with Khan's acts other than as collateral damage. Much like any faceless Klingon engineer might feel when his ship got blasted out of the sky by Kirk.

4. Khan even beats out Kirk in the morality department: despite years of hardship and certain doom, Khan stays faithful to his beloved wife and after her death raises their son to become a loyal and strong, proud young man, who willingly lays down his life for his dad; all this while presumably never marying again due to the memory of his lost love. Meanwhile,Kirk knocks up his girlfriend, ditches her to go tooling around space humping thirty years' worth of alien pussy as detailed in TOS, then FINALLY it occurs to him to check back in with her and find out he has a kid he never raised, never took a hand in guiding, and who fucking hates him. So who's the better man and father here?

No, Khan is not a villain in that sense of the word, and his actions were hardly as careless or disregarding of human life as those of Kirk. By all rights, we should have been cheering for him.
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
Intent. Khan's intent was murder and revenge.

Khan set off the device to kill Kirk, not save anybody. The fact that Spock's coffin landed on the Genesis planet was a fluke. You cannot claim that Spock's rebirth can be attributed to Khan. You might has well credit the guy hundreds of years ago who thought "AH! We'll chuck this dead body overboard instead of ferrying it home and give it a fancy name...like "burial at sea"...ooo that sounds good..this is sooo much better than having a stinky corpse on board." for Spock's rebirth as much as credit Khan.

Except for the following, very salient points:

1. Khan, as I detailed above, had every right to be harboring murderous rage at Kirk. His original sin in the TOS was basically to briefly comandeer Kirk's ship after Kirk woke his ass up from deep space slumber. Again, given his circumstances, an understandable reaction if not entirely aboveboard. Yet, of the DOZENS of races and persons who have successfully commandeered the Enterprise, ONLY Khan was subjected to a life sentence that at best equalled a hard life of backbreaking farming labor and probable early hardship and starvation, without benefit of technology, infrastucture, or even a sustainable population. EVEN had Seti Alpha not exploded, the chances for survival on the world were slim. Kirk had to have known that, which is why he conveniently never went back. Consider the reverse: Khan keeps the enterprise and maroons several hundred crewmen and Kirk on the same planet. After years of watching his people die on that rock, do you not think Kirk would have had murder in his eyes if Khan acccidentally wanered back into his phaser sights? Hell, THAT guy held a grudge over tribbles!

2. The detonation of the device, no matter what the motivation, would never have been carried out if Khan hadn't done it himself. Don't forget, Kirk and his ex and his kid spent most of the film arguing over whether anyone SHOULD detonate it, and without Khan would likely have remained in stalemate for years while everyone involved got oleder, the project lost funding, or some other factor rendered it obsolete. By detonating it on his own, Khan not only circumvented the entire tedious whiny argument but exposed key flaws in the device, which no doubt saved countless lives down the road. The fact that he got to kill his despised (and justifiably so) enemy was only gravy for his potatoes. Like he himself said, it was worth dying just to take out his hated enemy Kirk. This sentiment was echoed by KIRK himself on a number of occasions, for example in Generations when he allows himself to get killed in order to take out Malcolm McDowell and his dying question is "Did we get that fucker?"

3. Even if you disregard that Khan's actions provided the catalyst to save Spock, the fact is he didn't even kill him to start with.Spock committed selfless suicide by going in to fix the broken radioactive doohickey, and his situation had nothing to do with Khan's acts other than as collateral damage. Much like any faceless Klingon engineer might feel when his ship got blasted out of the sky by Kirk.

4. Khan even beats out Kirk in the morality department: despite years of hardship and certain doom, Khan stays faithful to his beloved wife and after her death raises their son to become a loyal and strong, proud young man, who willingly lays down his life for his dad; all this while presumably never marying again due to the memory of his lost love. Meanwhile,Kirk knocks up his girlfriend, ditches her to go tooling around space humping thirty years' worth of alien pussy as detailed in TOS, then FINALLY it occurs to him to check back in with her and find out he has a kid he never raised, never took a hand in guiding, and who fucking hates him. So who's the better man and father here?

No, Khan is not a villain in that sense of the word, and his actions were hardly as careless or disregarding of human life as those of Kirk. By all rights, we should have been cheering for him.
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
Cassie revenge stinkeye post in three...two...one...
 

CaptainWacky

I want to smell dark matter
Khan was like the Hitler of the 1990s.
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer

Robert "Monkey" Loggia

Mongoloid Biscuit Beast
Except for the following, very salient points:

1. Khan, as I detailed above, had every right to be harboring murderous rage at Kirk. His original sin in the TOS was basically to briefly comandeer Kirk's ship after Kirk woke his ass up from deep space slumber. Again, given his circumstances, an understandable reaction if not entirely aboveboard. Yet, of the DOZENS of races and persons who have successfully commandeered the Enterprise, ONLY Khan was subjected to a life sentence that at best equalled a hard life of backbreaking farming labor and probable early hardship and starvation, without benefit of technology, infrastucture, or even a sustainable population. EVEN had Seti Alpha not exploded, the chances for survival on the world were slim. Kirk had to have known that, which is why he conveniently never went back. Consider the reverse: Khan keeps the enterprise and maroons several hundred crewmen and Kirk on the same planet. After years of watching his people die on that rock, do you not think Kirk would have had murder in his eyes if Khan acccidentally wanered back into his phaser sights? Hell, THAT guy held a grudge over tribbles!

2. The detonation of the device, no matter what the motivation, would never have been carried out if Khan hadn't done it himself. Don't forget, Kirk and his ex and his kid spent most of the film arguing over whether anyone SHOULD detonate it, and without Khan would likely have remained in stalemate for years while everyone involved got oleder, the project lost funding, or some other factor rendered it obsolete. By detonating it on his own, Khan not only circumvented the entire tedious whiny argument but exposed key flaws in the device, which no doubt saved countless lives down the road. The fact that he got to kill his despised (and justifiably so) enemy was only gravy for his potatoes. Like he himself said, it was worth dying just to take out his hated enemy Kirk. This sentiment was echoed by KIRK himself on a number of occasions, for example in Generations when he allows himself to get killed in order to take out Malcolm McDowell and his dying question is "Did we get that fucker?"

3. Even if you disregard that Khan's actions provided the catalyst to save Spock, the fact is he didn't even kill him to start with.Spock committed selfless suicide by going in to fix the broken radioactive doohickey, and his situation had nothing to do with Khan's acts other than as collateral damage. Much like any faceless Klingon engineer might feel when his ship got blasted out of the sky by Kirk.

4. Khan even beats out Kirk in the morality department: despite years of hardship and certain doom, Khan stays faithful to his beloved wife and after her death raises their son to become a loyal and strong, proud young man, who willingly lays down his life for his dad; all this while presumably never marying again due to the memory of his lost love. Meanwhile,Kirk knocks up his girlfriend, ditches her to go tooling around space humping thirty years' worth of alien pussy as detailed in TOS, then FINALLY it occurs to him to check back in with her and find out he has a kid he never raised, never took a hand in guiding, and who fucking hates him. So who's the better man and father here?

No, Khan is not a villain in that sense of the word, and his actions were hardly as careless or disregarding of human life as those of Kirk. By all rights, we should have been cheering for him.

I love how you conveniently left out the fact that Khan was a dictator who conquered like half of Earth and whose main aspirations were to conquer the whole dang galaxy. Kirk could have killed his genocidal ass rather than given him a nice planet to live on.
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
Yeah but whose word do we have that any of that actually happened? The UFP? We all know that history is written by the victor; for example, 2,500 military dead at Pearl Harbor is a tragic horror, but 225,000 civilian dead at Nagasaki and Hiroshima were justifiable and necessary collateral damage. Given the propensity for this kind of overreaction by Earth people, chances are good the crime that got Khan frozen and shot into space was little more than jaywalking.

Khan was genetically created to be a superhuman ruler; so that's what he did. And despite his having ruled a chunk of the planet, canon has it that his rule was firm but benign. So essentially, he was pretty good at what he was created to do. Even when he was defeated it never listed what he did that was so terrible, only that he lost.

THERE is no record of genocidal stuff in Khan's origin story. On the other hand, Kirk basically killed all of Khan's people just because he was pissed Khan tried to take his ship and crew. Given that Kirk was a piss poor strategist and a cowboy in space, that might have been a good thing for countless red shirts otherwise doomed to death in half-baked landing parties.
 

Donovan

beer, I want beer
And in the spousal department. His wife was some broad he met on the Enterprise, remember, and she helped him trick the crew. He coulda dumped her when she had a change of heart, saved the captain and doomed them all, but he stuck by her. That's not the act of a heartless man...meanwhile, Kirk just let the girl go to certain death despite her having saved his skin moments before.

SPACEDICKERY!
 

Eggs Mayonnaise

All In With The Nuts
"Sulu...When did he find the time for a family?"
 
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