Troll Kingdom
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
RED arrived!
- Thread starter Friday
- Start date
Number_6
beer, I want beer
Well, you have to think about what it means for the Judge to tell Valentine to "Be" (and I think we should avoid the qualifier "just").
He means that Valentine needs to just Be Valentine. This doesn't preclude the taking of specific actions, because Being Valentine means taking specific actions, like stopping while drinking a bottle of water to say "Bonjour" to a complete stranger, taking Rita to the veterinarian's, reaching out to the Judge, and helping an old woman put a bottle in a recycling bin.
What more can any of us do than "Be"? We can, perhaps, become a better Number_6, or a better Friday, etc., but we can only Be Number_6 or Friday, etc. It is beyond our capacity to do anything more.
The Judge's "Être" is a philosophical "Être," as in Sartre's L'Être et le néant (Being and Nothingness).
He means that Valentine needs to just Be Valentine. This doesn't preclude the taking of specific actions, because Being Valentine means taking specific actions, like stopping while drinking a bottle of water to say "Bonjour" to a complete stranger, taking Rita to the veterinarian's, reaching out to the Judge, and helping an old woman put a bottle in a recycling bin.
What more can any of us do than "Be"? We can, perhaps, become a better Number_6, or a better Friday, etc., but we can only Be Number_6 or Friday, etc. It is beyond our capacity to do anything more.
The Judge's "Être" is a philosophical "Être," as in Sartre's L'Être et le néant (Being and Nothingness).
Friday
Bazinga!
I'm having a lot of trouble with this.Number_6 said:
I agree that we should all Be. That does not help alleviate Valentine's concerns about her brother, though, which is, IIRC, the topic at hand in this scene. How is Being going to help Valentine work her way through the helplessness she feels in regard to her brother? How is just being going to help her formulate a plan of action to improve her brother's lot?
Sorry, 6, pie in the sky poetic philosophizing doesn't get the work done.
Friday
Bazinga!
Alright...I'm in and out of the commentary. Interesting about that painting in Auguste's apartment of the ballerina with the arched back. I totally missed that.
About Being. Yes, Valentine does seem to be a person of action...or inaction, when she doesn't rat on that guy and his homosexual phone sex partner. And if Being Valentine includes action on her part concerning her brother, is the judge telling her that she can't be anything but what she is supposed to be a comfort? I mean, I think I see in her a need to make things right, not only in her life, but for those she cares about.
The impotence I know she feels because of the inability to make things right will not be assuaged by the advice to Be. She will still feel the need to take some kind of action, and will agonize over what action to take.
If she settles for Being, she is, in one aspect, denying a part of herself...the part that desires to act on her loved ones' behalves.
Therefore, if she does take the judge's advice to Be, she will, in fact, not Be.
About Being. Yes, Valentine does seem to be a person of action...or inaction, when she doesn't rat on that guy and his homosexual phone sex partner. And if Being Valentine includes action on her part concerning her brother, is the judge telling her that she can't be anything but what she is supposed to be a comfort? I mean, I think I see in her a need to make things right, not only in her life, but for those she cares about.
The impotence I know she feels because of the inability to make things right will not be assuaged by the advice to Be. She will still feel the need to take some kind of action, and will agonize over what action to take.
If she settles for Being, she is, in one aspect, denying a part of herself...the part that desires to act on her loved ones' behalves.
Therefore, if she does take the judge's advice to Be, she will, in fact, not Be.
Number_6
beer, I want beer
But if she just IS Valentine, she will take the appropriate action for Valentine.
You're still thinking about the Bodhi tree.
We've already seen Valentine being Valentine on several occasions. To care is part of her Being. Her essence, if you will. Kieslowski is concerned with essences; in Blind Chance, the main character, Witek, remains the same person in each of the three possible scenarios for his life, because his essence remains the same, despite his experiences. Though Kieslowski touches on existentialism on a number of occasions, he seems to disagree with the Sartrean edict that "existence precedes essence."
As for the ballerina, here's a couple of caps to reinforce that connection:
Note the portrait on the wall behind Auguste.
This is the only cap I have of Valentine in that particular dancer's pose, but I think it makes the connection.
You're still thinking about the Bodhi tree.
We've already seen Valentine being Valentine on several occasions. To care is part of her Being. Her essence, if you will. Kieslowski is concerned with essences; in Blind Chance, the main character, Witek, remains the same person in each of the three possible scenarios for his life, because his essence remains the same, despite his experiences. Though Kieslowski touches on existentialism on a number of occasions, he seems to disagree with the Sartrean edict that "existence precedes essence."
As for the ballerina, here's a couple of caps to reinforce that connection:
Note the portrait on the wall behind Auguste.
This is the only cap I have of Valentine in that particular dancer's pose, but I think it makes the connection.
Friday
Bazinga!
So the judge is basically saying her answers lie in just Being herself; listening to what her inner voice says, and being true to the person she really is: caring, giving, universally concerned with everyone's well being.
He's saying, in essence....
Keep on truckin', baby.
Not to be facetious, but that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? Just continue to do what you have done...you're on the right track, keep on goin'.
Yes, useful advice, to be sure. And I understand "Keep on truckin' " would not have fit into the overall tone of the film. But I have to keep it real, here.
Thanks for the caps, btw. They were illuminating, and helped me to solidify that connection.
He's saying, in essence....
Keep on truckin', baby.
Not to be facetious, but that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? Just continue to do what you have done...you're on the right track, keep on goin'.Yes, useful advice, to be sure. And I understand "Keep on truckin' " would not have fit into the overall tone of the film. But I have to keep it real, here.
Thanks for the caps, btw. They were illuminating, and helped me to solidify that connection.
Friday
Bazinga!
One more thing...
The advice to Be. That is very good advice....for a moral, ethical person. But what of those that do not have a centered moral compass? That advice would give those that are of a less savory type permission to continue to be unethical, wouldn't it? Telling Saddam Hussein to Be would not be a wise decision, would it?
I'm just spouting off whatever comes to mind, here.
The commentator on this DVD, btw, is insightful, but I'm finding she's missing a lot. At times, she doesn't address what I was hoping she would (the Be scene, for example. She addresses it cinematically, but not how it philosophically pertains to the characters).
BTW...laughing my ass off at the av, but 6 is going to be PISSED! :lol:
The advice to Be. That is very good advice....for a moral, ethical person. But what of those that do not have a centered moral compass? That advice would give those that are of a less savory type permission to continue to be unethical, wouldn't it? Telling Saddam Hussein to Be would not be a wise decision, would it?
I'm just spouting off whatever comes to mind, here.
The commentator on this DVD, btw, is insightful, but I'm finding she's missing a lot. At times, she doesn't address what I was hoping she would (the Be scene, for example. She addresses it cinematically, but not how it philosophically pertains to the characters).
BTW...laughing my ass off at the av, but 6 is going to be PISSED! :lol:
Friday
Bazinga!
Just finished the commentary. It really did make me appreciate the movie more. My first viewing, I have to admit, was somewhat confusing. This viewing, coupled with 6's patient tutelage, helped me understand the film both cinematically and thematically. I now plan to watch the film again, but this time just to enjoy it.
No thinking....just feeling.
No thinking....just feeling.
Friday
Bazinga!
OH!
You stated, 6, that if two of Kieslowki's characters successfully share a drink together, that is symbolic of a deep bonding.
The broken beer glass, then, could represent the loss of that deep bond.
Well?
And jack...yay! Let us know if you pick up the movie. The third installment of the trilogy is what we're discussing here...Red.
You stated, 6, that if two of Kieslowki's characters successfully share a drink together, that is symbolic of a deep bonding.
The broken beer glass, then, could represent the loss of that deep bond.
Well?
And jack...yay! Let us know if you pick up the movie. The third installment of the trilogy is what we're discussing here...Red.
Number_6
beer, I want beer
Friday said:
Definitely. Symbols in Kieslowski films generally have multiple meanings, and while he sometimes uses his own personal language, generally speaking the symbols are ones that make universal sense, once you start down the road of discovering them.
And you can't just let movies be. I have a living to make, after all.
Number_6
beer, I want beer
Friday said:Well, far be it for me to take away your livelihood.
What I meant was, now that I understand most of the subtext, I should just enjoy the story. As you suggested.
Definitely. But be open to finding new stuff each time you watch it.
I've seen it probably thirty times--once in super slow motion, when I took all the screencaps--and I still notice new things.
Friday
Bazinga!
During my next viewing, which will be later today, I'm just going to follow the story. If my mind's eye picks something up, great. However, I just feel like losing myself in the narrative. After all, isn't that what movies are for?
Too many of my friends have become jaded by the film industry, and are unable to enjoy films anymore. They end up picking apart every last detail of the movie. IMO, something is lost when you do that...the gift of pure escapism.
Too many of my friends have become jaded by the film industry, and are unable to enjoy films anymore. They end up picking apart every last detail of the movie. IMO, something is lost when you do that...the gift of pure escapism.
