Troll Kingdom

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

South Dakota House Approves Abortion Ban

TJHairball said:
And compared to the number of rape victims who get pregnant as a result of rape?

So why not make the amendment, if it's insignificant and a fundamentally nonconsensual use of a woman's reproductive system, which you're willing to at least pay lip service?

Compare the number of people who die as a result of second-hand cigarette smoke with the number of smokers who die as a result of cigarette smoke and I'm sure the former will be insignificant.

Yet, many states have banned smoking at any indoor facility (my state included).

It's called doing what's best for the greater good, for the maximum amount of people.

If you don't believe a fetus is a person, that's all well and good, it's no wonder you are pro-abortion. If, like me, you believe that life starts at conception, you want to fight like hell for every human life you can.
 
I guess the biggest disagreement I have with pro-abortionists (and it's one I think will never be resolved) can best be summed up by the mantra, "my body, my choice". Yes, it's your body. But your choice affects another person: your unborn baby. If it's a matter of "my body, my choice", why not be in favor of partial-birth abortions? Hell, if it's "my body, my choice", why not be able to abort the kid during childbirth? What if the woman decides at the last minute that she isn't ready, or doesn't want to go through the pain?
 
Big Dick McGee said:
If you don't believe a fetus is a person, that's all well and good, it's no wonder you are pro-abortion. If, like me, you believe that life starts at conception, you want to fight like hell for every human life you can.

Do you not know how to read, or are you so caught up in the pro-life rhetoric that you can't see past your own your own hysteria.

Show me where I said *I* was for abortion or did not consider a fetus a person?

I'm taking a position that I don't want the state dictating to me unnecessarily. You come back with even more State intrusion to show me that it's OK for the State to intrude into our private lives.

And you people call me a Liberal.
 
Big Dick McGee said:
I guess the biggest disagreement I have with pro-abortionists (and it's one I think will never be resolved) can best be summed up by the mantra, "my body, my choice". Yes, it's your body. But your choice affects another person: your unborn baby. If it's a matter of "my body, my choice", why not be in favor of partial-birth abortions? Hell, if it's "my body, my choice", why not be able to abort the kid during childbirth? What if the woman decides at the last minute that she isn't ready, or doesn't want to go through the pain?
Ideally, it's "my body, my choice of whether or not anything else gets to be a parasite on me." For this reason, it's not necessary that the right of a woman to control what's going on within her own body be exercised as abortion. This is only a technological and economic necessity.

And once deep-pocketed activists are willing to put their money where their principles truly point, fund reproductive research programs and fetus placement services, take care of all the unwanted children, etc etc, we'll be in a much less controversial place regardless of when you think something becomes human. Of course, right now those activists would rather spend money on propaganda and political campaigns, which isn't going to resolve this problem.

Except all those miscarriages that happen. You may want to press manslaughter charges every time an expecting mother miscarries through nobody else's fault, if you're going to consider a fetus a person.

I'll not dissemble that I don't. I'm willing to give infants the benefit of the doubt as to their person-hood, but I don't think anything not viable to survive outside of extensive life support and no more conscious/intelligent than all the "dumb beasts" has any more intrinsic claim to anything more than the potential to become a person. This potential deserves consideration... but it's not a person.
 
TJHairball said:
Ideally, it's "my body, my choice of whether or not anything else gets to be a parasite on me."

It's nice that you think of a baby as a "parasite". That explains alot about your stance!

And once deep-pocketed activists are willing to put their money where their principles truly point, fund reproductive research programs and fetus placement services, take care of all the unwanted children, etc etc, we'll be in a much less controversial place regardless of when you think something becomes human. Of course, right now those activists would rather spend money on propaganda and political campaigns, which isn't going to resolve this problem.

The list of prospective adoptive parents is ten miles long. Why the hell do you think people go to China to adopt? Because so many people in the United States want to adopt, there are too few babies to go around. There are certainly enought people to take care of "unwanted" babies!

Number-6 posted an article a while ago that stated the medical fact that life begins at conception. It was from a medical doctor, corroborated by many of his colleagues. Friday and her ilk shouted it down as "religious bullshit". I'm quite convinced that if the medical community came out tomorrow and said, "We've discovered the spark of life! It occurs when the sperm and egg join", the pro-choice people would still push for abortion. After all, it's not about killing unborn babies, it's about protecting a woman's choice to kill her unborn baby, right?

Except all those miscarriages that happen. You may want to press manslaughter charges every time an expecting mother miscarries through nobody else's fault, if you're going to consider a fetus a person.

Now you're being ridiculous. A miscarriage is a naturally-occuring event. It'd be like prosecuting someone for attempted suicide because they got cancer.

Now, on the other hand, if someone were to deliberately try to induce a miscarriage, say by striking a woman's stomach, etc. you'd better believe that's a crime, punishable by jail time. Let's not forget, Scott Peterson is getting the needle for two murders, that of Laci and his unborn son.

I'll not dissemble that I don't. I'm willing to give infants the benefit of the doubt as to their person-hood, but I don't think anything not viable to survive outside of extensive life support and no more conscious/intelligent than all the "dumb beasts" has any more intrinsic claim to anything more than the potential to become a person. This potential deserves consideration... but it's not a person.

I guess it's OK to kill your dog because he's become inconvenient, eh? After all, he's just "dumb beast".
 
Big Dick McGee said:
It's nice that you think of a baby as a "parasite". That explains alot about your stance!
And, biologically, that's what it's acting as.
The list of prospective adoptive parents is ten miles long. Why the hell do you think people go to China to adopt? Because so many people in the United States want to adopt, there are too few babies to go around. There are certainly enought people to take care of "unwanted" babies!
So you should have an easy time setting this up. Get cracking, man, time's a-wasting. Fund those researchers and reproductive health centers. Lives are on the line - at least as you measure them - and you can help save them!
Number-6 posted an article a while ago that stated the medical fact that life begins at conception. It was from a medical doctor, corroborated by many of his colleagues. Friday and her ilk shouted it down as "religious bullshit". I'm quite convinced that if the medical community came out tomorrow and said, "We've discovered the spark of life! It occurs when the sperm and egg join", the pro-choice people would still push for abortion. After all, it's not about killing unborn babies, it's about protecting a woman's choice to kill her unborn baby, right?
And? It's pure definitional games when you start talking about "when life starts" vs "when a life starts," etc.

Nobody's questioning that the "spark of life" occurs at conception. But exactly what that means - is it the beginning of a consciousness? An individual? A person?

Or not?
Now you're being ridiculous. A miscarriage is a naturally-occuring event. It'd be like prosecuting someone for attempted suicide because they got cancer.
And this logically consequent absurdity should tell you something - it's absurd to try to extend all the legal rights of personhood to a fetus.

Death of a person is naturally occurring... but people are still prosecuted for unintentionally causing it. The charge on the books for that is manslaughter, and if you want to truly treat a fetus as a person... you get to run around prosecuting miscarriages.
Now, on the other hand, if someone were to deliberately try to induce a miscarriage, say by striking a woman's stomach, etc. you'd better believe that's a crime, punishable by jail time. Let's not forget, Scott Peterson is getting the needle for two murders, that of Laci and his unborn son.
A legal precedent you are quite delighted with.
I guess it's OK to kill your dog because he's become inconvenient, eh? After all, he's just "dumb beast".
You may find it so. It's certainly treated that way in the law.

You are welcome, of course, to suggest extending the rights of so-called "dumb beasts" extensively.
 
If South Dakota's governor signs the bill passed by the legislature this week, outlawing abortion except when needed to save the life of the mother, it will generate a fight in federal court, which is just what the sponsors intend. They hope their vote will prod the U.S. Supreme Court into revisiting, and ultimately overruling, its 1973 Roe v Wade decision.

But it's unlikely that such a scenario will play out, and here's why. There's no doubt the governor's signature will spark a legal battle. Planned Parenthood has already announced that it will go to court immediately. Both a federal judge in South Dakota and the federal appeals court will almost certainly declare the state law invalid, because both are bound by the Supreme Court's abortion decisions.

The state would then ask the Supreme Court to hear the case. But the justices are unlikely to do so for several reasons. The court's more liberal members who support the Roe v Wade decision -- Justices Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer -- might think it would be good to take the case and strike down the South Dakota law to discourage other states from trying a similar gambit. But can those four be confident that Justice Anthony Kennedy, who has supported Roe in the past, will provide the crucial fifth vote this time? He joined the dissenters six years ago when the court struck down Nebraska's "partial birth" abortion law. Will he be with the Roe supporters this time?

Conversely, it might seem plausible that the court's known anti-Roe justices, Scalia and Thomas, would want to take the case to strike Roe down. But can they expect Kennedy to vote with them? And are they certain that John Roberts and Samuel Alito are prepared to overturn Roe, after both said during their confirmation hearings that Roe was a precedent worthy of respect? And there's another factor: a decision against South Dakota could forestall further challenges to Roe for several years.

In short, neither side can be confident it would have the necessary five votes to prevail.

A Supreme Court expert, appellate lawyer Tom Goldstein of Washington, D.C., offers another reason the court is unlikely to take the case. While the justices make legal decisions, they are fully aware of the political impact of their actions. Even assuming Roberts and Alito are prepared, someday, to overturn Roe, they might well think it would be perceived as blatantly political to reach out, so soon after arriving at the court, to the first frontal assault on Roe that comes their way. They might worry that such an action would be perceived, Goldstein says, as a payback to the Bush administration.
 
And so it begins...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11621741/

Mississippi advances bill to ban most abortions
No exceptions for rape or incest; Barbour says he’ll probably sign it into law

JACKSON, Miss. - Gov. Haley Barbour said Wednesday he would probably sign a bill under consideration in the state House that would ban most abortions in Mississippi.

The measure, which passed the House Public Health Committee on Tuesday, would allow abortion only to save a woman’s life. It would make no exception in cases of rape or incest.

Barbour, a Republican, said he preferred an exception in cases of rape and incest, but if such a bill came to his desk: “I suspect I’ll sign it.”

The full House could vote on the bill next week, and it would then go to the Senate.

South Dakota lawmakers passed a similar bill last week that was intended to provoke a legal showdown over Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing the right to an abortion. The measure is awaiting Republican Gov. Mike Rounds’ signature. He has said he is inclined to sign it.

Mississippi already has some of the strictest abortion laws in the nation. It requires a 24-hour waiting period and counseling for all abortions, plus the consent of both parents for minors who seek the procedure.

A Missouri lawmaker filed similar legislation to ban abortions, as well as a measure to amend the state’s constitution.

“The time has come for these decisions to be made in these deliberative bodies, not by nine men and women who wear black robes,” said Republican state Sen. Jason Crowell.

The Missouri Legislature has a solid anti-abortion majority and has enacted various restrictions to the procedure.
 
and.... If you can't ban an abortion, make it imposisble to get one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11604762/

Supreme Court rules against abortion clinics
Justices rule that protests cannot be banned using extortion laws


WASHINGTON - A 20-year-old legal fight over protests outside abortion clinics ended Tuesday with the Supreme Court ruling that federal extortion and racketeering laws cannot be used against demonstrators.

The 8-0 decision was a setback for abortion clinics that were buoyed when the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals kept their case alive two years ago despite the high court’s 2003 ruling that had cleared the way for lifting a nationwide injunction on anti-abortion leader Joseph Scheidler and others.

Anti-abortion groups appealed to the justices after the lower court sought to determine whether the injunction could be supported by findings that protesters had made threats of violence.

In Tuesday’s ruling, Justice Stephen Breyer said Congress did not create “a freestanding physical violence offense†in the federal extortion law known as the Hobbs Act.

'A great day for pro-lifers'
Instead, Breyer wrote, Congress addressed violence outside abortion clinics in 1994 by passing the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, which allows for court injunctions to set limits for such protests.

“It’s a great day for pro-lifers,†said Troy Newman, president of Operation Rescue.

Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, said the decision was disappointing because the injunction had decreased violence outside clinics nationally.

She said the clinic access act is problematic because it requires abortion providers to seek injunctions “city by city†and turns back the clock to the late 1980s when NOW played cat and mouse with Operation Rescue in trying to anticipate the cities and clinics that abortion protesters planned to target next.

Newman said his group and others have set their sights on the clinic access law, filing legal challenges they hope will lead courts — possibly even the Supreme Court— to overturn it.

Also Tuesday, the Missouri state Supreme Court upheld the state’s 24-hour waiting period for abortions, rejecting arguments that it was overly vague and deprived people of liberty and privacy rights.

The law, enacted when legislators overrode a veto of then-Gov. Bob Holden, requires physicians to wait 24 hours after conferring with women before performing abortions. It requires that consultation to cover such things as “the indicators and contraindicators†and the “physical, psychological and situational†risk factors associated with abortions.

Abortion opponents hope momentum is shifting in their favor: Last week, the high court decided to consider reinstating a federal ban on what opponents call partial-birth abortion, and the South Dakota legislature’s passed a bill that would make it a crime for doctors to perform an abortion unless it was necessary to save the woman’s life.

President Bush, asked about the South Dakota measure in an interview with ABC News’ Elizabeth Vargas, said Tuesday he hadn’t “paid attention to that, to this particular issue you’re talking about†but “I am not going to prejudge how the Supreme Court is going to judge a particular issue.â€

However, he said, “My position has always been three exceptions: rape, incests and the life of the mother.†Asked if he would include the broader category of health of the mother, Bush said: “No. I said life of the mother, and health is a very vague term, but my position has been clear on that ever since I started running for office.â€

In the abortion protest case, social activists and the AFL-CIO had sided with the demonstrators out of concern that the federal extortion law could be used to thwart their efforts to change public policy or agitate for better wages and working conditions.

Twenty years of legal battles
The legal battle began in 1986, when NOW filed a class-action suit challenging tactics used by the Pro-Life Action Network to block women from entering abortion clinics.

NOW’s legal strategy was novel at the time, relying on civil provisions of the 1970 Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, which was used predominantly in criminal cases against organized crime. The lawsuit also relied on the Hobbs Act, a 55-year-old law banning extortion.

A federal judge issued a nationwide injunction against the anti-abortion protesters after a Chicago jury found in 1998 that demonstrators had engaged in a pattern of racketeering by interfering with clinic operations, menacing doctors, assaulting patients and damaging clinic property.

But the Supreme Court ruled in 2003 that the extortion law could not be used against the protesters because they had not illegally “obtained property†from women seeking to enter clinics to receive abortions.

Justice Samuel Alito did not participate in the decision because he was not a member of the court when the case was argued.

The cases are Scheidler v. NOW, 04-1244, and Operation Rescue v. NOW, 04-1352.
 
Un-fucking-believable.

Who was telling me months ago that this would never happen?

And that politicizing the Supreme Court confirmation hearings is a travesty?

Well, maybe there are reasons why they are politicized, this being a major one.
 
RobL said:
And what was the first thing he did? Basically make it impossible to execute anyone in the country by saying the current lethal injection method is cruel and unusual punishment, because the slapdick being executed may be awake during the process, if the injection isn't done in the right manner/order/whatever.

This is a mischaracterization of the ruling. Alito has not ruled on the consitutionality of lethal injection. He joined the majority in issuing a stay of execution while lower courts considered the inmate's appeals. We don't know how he would rule if the issue of capital punishment actually came before him.
 
As for the right to privacy, I agree with what Cait and Octavian have said. There is no right to privacy written into the Constitution, but previous courts have reasoned that the rights that are enumerated in the Constitution--such as freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and freedom of association--can't be exercised unless we have a sphere of privacy around ourselves protected from government interference. I hope the current court doesn't go back on that reasoning.
 
And the bill becomes law...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/06/sd.abortionban.ap/index.html

Monday, March 6, 2006; Posted: 2:02 p.m. EST (19:02 GMT)

PIERRE, South Dakota (AP) -- South Dakota's governor on Monday signed into law a bill banning nearly all abortions, setting up a court fight aimed at challenging the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion in the United States.

The bill would make it a crime for doctors to perform an abortion unless it was necessary to save the woman's life. It would make no exception in cases of rape or incest.

At least we have this...

In a written statement, Gov. Mike Rounds said he expects the law will be tied up in court for years and will not take effect unless the Supreme Court upholds it.

Damn...
 
Yep. Almost as un-american as not being able to make a choice in a country founded on personal freedoms.
 
^^Oh, you mean, like the freedom to develop a community of like-minded individuals, even when that like-mindedness is of a religious nature? Hmmm?
 
Yep pretty much.

Besides, this is nothing more than a governor abusing his position to try and force the issue on the supreme court.
 
Top