The ethics of war

Hambil

I AM A GOLDEN GOD
link

Fascinating article. It talks about the effort these marines make to avoid injuring civilians. Witnessed first hand by an embedded reporter. The same marines that later killed 24 Iraq civilians in retaliation for a road side bombing.

Can we have the same expectations of ethical conduct for soldiers at war? Can we expect them to follow the 'rules' day in and day out? What this shows me is that these were not bad people, but good people turned to an extreme reaction by the pressures of war and terror.

I'm not saying we should forgive them, or not punish them. I'm just raising the questions.
 
Just 2 things I'd like to point out:

There was a reporter along with them when they were acting like angels.

Their earlier behavior could have very well been sincere, with their later actions being heavily influenced by stress or bad news.
 
War is inherintly unethical.
Might Makes Right.
No....

Might makes Might, and Right makes Right.

One process does not lead to another.
 
Blindgroping said:
War is inherintly unethical.
And if it was a war waged against invading fanatics who wanted to exterminate their opponents, and then themselves? There would be no ethics left.

Barrow and Tipler state that, although the FAP is a purely physical statement, the "validity of the FAP is the physical precondition for moral values to arise and so to continue to exist in the universe: no moral values of any sort can exist in a lifeless cosmology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_anthropic_principle

Some wars ARE defensive and ethical. But truth is in the eye of the beholder, just like ethics, so it would depend on which side you were on.
 
This has been the primary problem since the cameras started rolling in th VietNam era. There is no such thing as an "ethical war." The very reason for its existence is to actively seek and kill enemies, and "enemy" is defined very, very loosely in wars where there is no clear battle line or objective.

Further, when we consider the average age of enlisted soldiers, around 19-22, we are basically asking a bunch of frat boys to wield the power of death over everything around them, but ONLY to use it when the cause is just. WTF is that?

I abhor the idea of senseless killing and wars of attrition where innocents are slaughtered, but that's what war is. If we are to hand boys weapons, tell them to go kill people and then get angry when they do it, we need to hold responsible the person who sent them there and gave them a gun.

An army is no more or less moral than its commander-in-chief. At this late stage, knowing what we know about the origins of this conflict: is anyone surprised at the path we find ourselves on?
 
Donovan said:
There is no such thing as an "ethical war." The very reason for its existence is to actively seek and kill enemies, and "enemy" is defined very, very loosely in wars where there is no clear battle line or objective.
It's unethical to defend your nation? Wars have defenders as well as aggressors.
 
Donovan said:
If we are to hand boys weapons, tell them to go kill people and then get angry when they do it, we need to hold responsible the person who sent them there and gave them a gun.

An army is no more or less moral than its commander-in-chief. At this late stage, knowing what we know about the origins of this conflict: is anyone surprised at the path we find ourselves on?

[This is a reposting of a post on another site on this topic. It seemed relevant in this discussion too.]

We owe it to the young people who offer up their lives NOT to let their lives and honor be completely ruined by the war we ask them to wage for us. It's not about the United States being some kind of moral benchmark of virtue when it comes to war. We're not, and the sooner we get over our arrogance the better off we'll all be.

It's about using the military when we really NEED them, so that if they survive they *know* to a moral certainty that they*HAD* to make those choices to kill. In the end, after the war is over, that clarity will [perhaps] enable them to live normal lives once they return. Without that clarity, they can often remain broken by what war demanded of them and the acts they committed.

If we leave them with a moral ambiguity and still ask them to kill, we destroy the hearts and minds of our military. Insanity can take over where reason and "clear purpose" once resided.

My father was in the European theater during WWII. That was a war that many saw with such clarity and resolve as a war that *HAD* to be fought. My father was one of those men, and yet....... even he had memories he could not speak of, even as an old man.

He was part of the American troops that liberated the death/labor camps.

To the day he died, he would only talk about his leave in Paris, NOTHING else. Whatever he saw, whatever he did, he did it because he saw it as a mandate of conscience and he lived with the consequences of that mandate. He never regretted what he did, but he never shared 'war stories' with his buddies either.

Sitting at home, we have the luxury of speaking of high morality and the ethics of war because we are safe, and comfortable in our homes. We do not know what they face. The truth is, in a war of insurrection the structure of the military breaks down and the foot soldiers do acquire a siege mentality. Danger at every turn, and from any place; survival instincts kick in and the unthinkable happens. Young people who began defending our nation, sank/sink into survival of the fittest, and some [more than we might like to imagine] sink even further into the brutality and lose themselves by becoming that which they hate.

It is our duty as citizens to understand both the cause of such things and to hold them accountable. We have to temper the situation with both or we miss the whole point.

Our ultimate responsibility is to make sure our elected officials don't use our military [and the lives of our young people] in situations where there is a moral ambiguity. We are responsible for the actions of our government because they are elected by the people. We don't get to shake our fists about the decisions of our leaders because their power was ceded to them by citizens like you and I.

Democrats don't get off the hook because they are the opposition, and Republicans don't take the full blame because it is 'their' war. We share in ALL the responsibility because we elected these officials. We share in the tragedy that befalls our soldiers and in the moral and ethical decay that can occur when men and women are asked to kill each day and aren't given a good reason why.
 
Hambil said:
Which are we?
In the the latest wars? The aggressors, of course.

Now I'd like someone to tell me with a straight face that it would be 'unethical' for Iran to defend itself in the face of Western aggression. I just gotta see the spins and tangents on this one.

Cait said:
We share in ALL the responsibility because we elected these officials.
There is a bit more to this than that. Bush's approval rating was 29% a couple of weeks ago, and the mainstream news media is reporting that it has 'dropped' to 36%.

It's forces like these which ensure that people remain in a docile and confused state. Were the Germans responsible for any possible death camps if there was nothing to indicate their existence?

Despite all the things we openly discuss on TK, there is a shocking ignorance of reality out there.
 
Messenger said:
In the the latest wars? The aggressors, of course.

Now I'd like someone to tell me with a straight face that it would be 'unethical' for Iran to defend itself in the face of Western aggression. I just gotta see the spins and tangents on this one.

You would be wrong. Iran has every right to fight against American aggression. It's only Americans who think it is OK to invade another country and then act surprised when those citizens take exception. Only an arrogant American fool would think that the people in other nations would welcome Americans as aggressors with open arms. Unfortunately history is full of such foolish thinking. No one likes a foreign military patrolling it's streets. No one. A fact that somehow seems to slip by American strategists time after time.

Any sovereign nation has the right to fight against aggression. Any sovereign nation who is dismantled [Palestine] has the right to fight as well. World history is not the same propaganda over there as it is here. Contrary to public opinion and popular thinking, America is not perfect.

As an American I can certainly accept that our interests were served by several 'acts of aggression' in our history. I'm not ignorant to "our" interests around the world. But as a student of history I would be foolish to feign surprise when other nations take exception to our use of them and their resources for our national interests.

There is a bit more to this than that. Bush's approval rating was 29% a couple of weeks ago, and the mainstream news media is reporting that it has 'dropped' to 36%.

This is an irrelevancy, he was voted in by a majority. 50% of the voting population supported him and his leadership. Those votes kept him in office. The fact that most are dissatisfied now, is a good thing, but pointing it out his approval rating now, is irrelevant to the point I made re: voter responsibility. We don't get to vote for some Joe Schmo and then wash our hands of what he does with the power 'we' gave him.

It's forces like these which ensure that people remain in a docile and confused state. Were the Germans responsible for any possible death camps if there was nothing to indicate their existence?

Again this is an irrelevancy. There was not Free Press in Germany to reveal what the government was doing. We have a Free Press [at least we think we do]. The point is, just saying that the masses are easily influenced and confused doesn't absolve them [or us] or responsibility when it comes to putting someone in power.

While money and influence control power, the people are needed to put someone in power. Why? Because it is only the people who can topple power through revolution and insurgency.

Go read the Declaration of Independence again.

I know it is blasphemy to speak of revolution, but go read the Declaration again. It is perhaps the most legitimate document ever written. Sure the Founders used it to rally the colonies around their agenda, but that doesn't mean the Declaration isn't a legitimate document in its own right.

Read it again, and then come back and tell me the population is not responsible for the leaders it supports. It's our responsibility to NOT be confused, to NOT be easily indoctrinated, to NOT let our leaders use fear mongering to push their agenda past us. It is all our responsibility, and if we don't take responsibility we deserve what we get, just as the Germans got Hitler.

Despite all the things we openly discuss on TK, there is a shocking ignorance of reality out there.

That is a typically facile TK response in a topic for discussion that has just begun.
 
Caitriona said:
You would be wrong.
Then talk to BG, for fuck's sake, and keep your jitters to yourself!


Iran has every right to fight against American aggression. It's only Americans who think it is OK to invade another country and then act surprised when those citizens take exception. Only an arrogant American fool would think that the people in other nations would welcome Americans as aggressors with open arms. Unfortunately history is full of such foolish thinking. No one likes a foreign military patrolling it's streets. No one. A fact that somehow seems to slip by American strategists time after time.
Good to know.
Any sovereign nation has the right to fight against aggression. Any sovereign nation who is dismantled [Palestine] has the right to fight as well. World history is not the same propaganda over there as it is here. Contrary to public opinion and popular thinking, America is not perfect.
Yeah.
As an American I can certainly accept that our interests were served by several 'acts of aggression' in our history. I'm not ignorant to "our" interests around the world. But as a student of history I would be foolish to feign surprise when other nations take exception to our use of them and their resources for our national interests.
Yep.


This is an irrelevancy, he was voted in by a majority. 50% of the voting population supported him and his leadership. Those votes kept him in office. The fact that most are dissatisfied now, is a good thing, but pointing it out his approval rating now, is irrelevant to the point I made re: voter responsibility. We don't get to vote for some Joe Schmo and then wash our hands of what he does with the power 'we' gave him.
I didn't vote for him.

Again this is an irrelevancy. There was not Free Press in Germany to reveal what the government was doing. We have a Free Press [at least we think we do].
How exactly does this show my comment to be irrelevant?

The point is, just saying that the masses are easily influenced and confused doesn't absolve them [or us] or responsibility when it comes to putting someone in power.
It absolves me, because I was aware of it while it was going on, and my words fell on deaf ears.


While money and influence control power, the people are needed to put someone in power. Why? Because it is only the people who can topple power through revolution and insurgency.
Horseshit. A dynamic and open political movement, armed with nothing but the truth, can accomplish the same. We are not physicaly in chains, yet your suggesting buzzsaws where speech would suffice.

Go read the Declaration of Independence again.

I know it is blasphemy to speak of revolution, but go read the Declaration again. It is perhaps the most legitimate document ever written. Sure the Founders used it to rally the colonies around their agenda, but that doesn't mean the Declaration isn't a legitimate document in its own right.

Read it again, and then come back and tell me the population is not responsible for the leaders it supports. It's our responsibility to NOT be confused, to NOT be easily indoctrinated, to NOT let our leaders use fear mongering to push their agenda past us.
Well, the American public fucked up, big time!

It is all our responsibility, and if we don't take responsibility we deserve what we get, just as the Germans got Hitler.
You mean, the rest of you.

That is a typically facile TK response in a topic for discussion that has just begun.
You mean, me saying that the American public being generally ignorant of what's going on is a typically facile TK response? OK!
 
Then talk to BG, for fuck's sake, and keep your jitters to yourself!

What? What are you talking about? I don't mind being insulted, or even told I'm wrong, BUT MAKE SOME SENSE DAMN IT.
 
I think he was referring to BG's (apparent) assertion that all wars are inherently unethical; specifically, he was trying to make the point that fighting back against aggression isn't unethical at all.
 
Oh... thanks. I couldn't figure out what some of his remarks meant.

For the record, I agree, defending oneself is not unethical. A nation protecting itself against aggression is not unethical on its face. The ethics and morality of war are of course embedded in the intent. Saving lives is ethical. Making money for the rich and powerful using lives is not.
 
Careful, Cait -- your line of thinking is very, very close to the line of thinking that put me on the unpopular side of a very controversial issue.

But I'll say this -- it's not only wrong, but absolutely disgusting to either spend the lives of innocents for profit and political power -- or to exploit the deaths of innocents for those purposes.
 
Blindgroping said:
You cannot "defend" by going to Their turf and killing them.
It then becomes an offensive.

But at the same time, wouldn't it also be unethical to avoid putting up a defensive on their turf to bar them from entering yours and putting civilians at risk?

Or is the truly unethical thing having allowed your citizenry to become too dependent on a standing army for its defense?

I see what you're saying, though -- our military isn't currently defending us from either Iraq or Iran. But maybe that's why you used the quotes around "defend" -- because that's not at all what our soldiers are doing -- not for us, anyway.
 
Caitriona said:
Messenger said:
Then talk to BG, for fuck's sake, and keep your jitters to yourself!
What? What are you talking about? I don't mind being insulted, or even told I'm wrong, BUT MAKE SOME SENSE DAMN IT.
I think I've just been insulted.
I don't know how though.
 
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