walks in, looks around.

[Donovan]

Huh. Guess we DO have a religion forum.

Well I'll be goddamned.

Ooops, sorry, I mean goshdarned.

Don't look like much though. I feel like somebody oughtta say a few words, like a prayer or something. You know, on account of it's a religion forum and all...


...


...



... sooooo, ok then. Guess I'll just let myself out.

 

[SuN]

Do u rekon God has wings?
Often his wings are referred to....does that mean if He created us in His image....that our spirits have wings?
And if he made us a little lower than angels, and a little higher than animals...does that mean that animal characteristics and emotional responses of jelousy, joy etc are equally as impacting and relevent on their little lives and their life growth?

These r vry important questions......kthnx

 

[Donovan]

God created the sense of self in man and woman, the ability to percieve one's own place in the world that set that creature apart from the others. Along with that self-awareness was given the ability to gather information and decide on a course of action: non-instinctive behavior.

In order to test the effectiveness of this gift, God created a test: the tree of "knowledge". God placed a desirable object within easy reach of humans, then instructed them to leave it alone or face drastic consequences. Then he left them alone with it, a further test.

Should the human animal do as instructed and ignore the obvious reward, the gift of self-awareness would be a failure. To obey a higher authority is instinctive; to weigh all possible options and make a decision that isn't immediately the obvious right choice takes a sense of thought and acuity. Of self-awareness that an act might lead to harm but still is outweighed by the potential reward offered.

So mankind weighed his options and took the unguarded reward. In doing so, deliberately disobeyed the voice of authority, went against self-preservation instinct, acted in deliberate and coherent thought/action pattern, and passed the unspoken test. In short, mankind made a choice that benefitted the species (tree of knowledge) over the self (thou shalt surely die).

It is in this fashion and not in any physical sense that we are most like the gods. The parable of independent growth is reenacted again and again in every home as children grow and become functional adults. It is the secret and unvoiced desire of every parent that the child will grow to disobey, and in so doing learn to think independently. The child who cannot learn to be self-aware is forever kept protected, unable to survive a world that requires awareness. But the child who can think, and make those decisions that are needed; that child is sprung from the garden and given dominion over the Earth...

 

[Donovan]

WHAT'S THIS PROFOUND POST DOING ON TK?

They can't all be fastballs and sliders. Sometimes I like to throw a changeup...keeps people guessing.

 

[Blindgroping]

The more you peer in at TK, the more TK peers back at you.

 

[SuN]

In order to test the effectiveness of this gift, God created a test: the tree of "knowledge". God placed a desirable object within easy reach of humans, then instructed them to leave it alone or face drastic consequences. Then he left them alone with it, a further test.

lulz @ 'test'

I find it pretty retarded and self detrimental to have accepted the tree of knowledge fruit, rather than the tree of life; I know which one I would have taken...building on the whole mini god thing; fo sho it would have been the other tree.
I question the motivation for choosing the easy tree over the difficult tree....the knowledge tree didn't require thinking and reasoning; it was impulsive, self serving and detrimental. For once, it was about Eve....about her needs and wants; regardless of the needs of those around her.

Choosing the life tree required a little bit of foresight, a little bit of loyalty a little bit of reasoning. The life tree is self preserving, fuck the knowledge tree when you could have the life tree.
I feel its quite telling; human fleshly nature is not about sustainability, it centers around the individuals needs; why eat vegetables when you can have ice cream? Why farm old growth forest when you can farm plantations?

Self discipline, consideration, wisdom, forethought, reasoning etc is what enables us to choose sustainability over short term gain.

Srsly, what about the wings Donovan?

 

[Cassie]

Adam and Eve already had the "life tree" they only knew death after eating from the "knowledge tree". It wasn't a choice between trees. Also, I think Adam ate the fruit and learned to blame it on Eve!

 

[SuN]

Genesis 2:9 (New International Version)
9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


It also makes reference to the tree of life's leaves being used to heal the nations; later in the story and that those who will live with God in new world, will eet from tree of life.

 

[SuN]

If wisdom is the application of knowledge; what is knowledge without it?
Irresponsible, power orientated, and exploitative to the global village of humanity?

Academics without wisdom are nothing but educated fools; I take it a step further and say they are gluttonous, educated fools; as there is a responsibility associated with gathering knowledge, and if it is not applied and used then acquiring it is purely for self serving gain, limiting its potential to be shared and handed over to those who can and will use it, resulting in nothing more than the propagation of shallowness and self importance.

 

[Donovan]

lulz @ 'test'

I find it pretty retarded and self detrimental to have accepted the tree of knowledge fruit, rather than the tree of life; I know which one I would have taken...building on the whole mini god thing; fo sho it would have been the other tree.
I question the motivation for choosing the easy tree over the difficult tree....the knowledge tree didn't require thinking and reasoning; it was impulsive, self serving and detrimental. For once, it was about Eve....about her needs and wants; regardless of the needs of those around her.

Choosing the life tree required a little bit of foresight, a little bit of loyalty a little bit of reasoning. The life tree is self preserving, fuck the knowledge tree when you could have the life tree.
I feel its quite telling; human fleshly nature is not about sustainability, it centers around the individuals needs; why eat vegetables when you can have ice cream? Why farm old growth forest when you can farm plantations?

Self discipline, consideration, wisdom, forethought, reasoning etc is what enables us to choose sustainability over short term gain.

Srsly, what about the wings Donovan?

The item taken was not important, nor were the labels placed on the trees. The tree of "knowledge" was forbidden, under threat of painful death. The very act of reaching for that temptation; the knowing disobedience of authority; they already had the knowledge, which was that everything should be questioned, even the voice of supreme authority. We as a species are the weakest physical predators, both in strength and in fighting prowess. Our senses are dull compared to basically every other animal on the planet. We dominate, not because of our intelligence, but because of our NEED to challenge status quo. We are the only species that must know "why" a thing is so.

As for the parable of the tree of life: when God discovered what they'd done he said, "Okay that was great but let's get them out of here before they take from that tree and become TOO much like us." Because with the pride that every parent feels watching his children grow and become equal, there is also a certain amount of sadness and even a little fear that the child will become better than the parent. Child growing up = parent growing old; child growing strong = parent growing feeble. That too is the nature of things. God says, okay, I taught you almost everything I know. You are almost as good as me. Man says, "That's okay, I think we can work out the rest of it on our own."

As for wings: yes. But not how you pictured them.

 

[Ilyanna]

Donovan, that was a great post. But since I am a born antagonist... let's act for a while like I were believing in the Christian God and didn't think that this parabel is a story to teach kids (and grown-ups) to 'obey or else...':

God created the sense of self in man and woman, the ability to percieve one's own place in the world that set that creature apart from the others. Along with that self-awareness was given the ability to gather information and decide on a course of action: non-instinctive behavior.

We're not the only species with self-awareness. Among other animals, namely the elephant, the chimpanzee, the orang-utan, and the dolphin, even the magpie has proven to recognize itself in the mirror, which is an established test in behavioral science to establish if a species is self-aware. Link: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0060202
We're not quite as special as we want ourselves to be

In order to test the effectiveness of this gift, God created a test: the tree of "knowledge". God placed a desirable object within easy reach of humans, then instructed them to leave it alone or face drastic consequences. Then he left them alone with it, a further test.

Should the human animal do as instructed and ignore the obvious reward, the gift of self-awareness would be a failure. To obey a higher authority is instinctive; to weigh all possible options and make a decision that isn't immediately the obvious right choice takes a sense of thought and acuity. Of self-awareness that an act might lead to harm but still is outweighed by the potential reward offered.

So mankind weighed his options and took the unguarded reward. In doing so, deliberately disobeyed the voice of authority, went against self-preservation instinct, acted in deliberate and coherent thought/action pattern, and passed the unspoken test. In short, mankind made a choice that benefitted the species (tree of knowledge) over the self (thou shalt surely die).

See, that's where I disagree. SuN already stated that she deems eating from the Tree of Knowledge to be selfish (no matter who actually did it, btw), and I agree. I like your way of interpreting the whole scenario as a test, but I think of it being about this: is mankind strong enough to resist the bait? Can it refrain from doing something that wisom (or God, if you like) has told them to be disadvantageous? To explain what I mean: have you ever heard about a scientist stopping his/her research because its outcome might be difficult to handle / could be dangerous? Now you tell me: is that really benefitting? Or wouldn't it be a better idea to learn to stand back and say 'ugh, let's just not go there' once in a while?
The problem I have with your interpretation is that I really don't think that humankind has been successful so far. We are destroying ourselves in every way possible, and we all know it. So, basically: we were tested, and we failed.

It is in this fashion and not in any physical sense that we are most like the gods. The parable of independent growth is reenacted again and again in every home as children grow and become functional adults. It is the secret and unvoiced desire of every parent that the child will grow to disobey, and in so doing learn to think independently. The child who cannot learn to be self-aware is forever kept protected, unable to survive a world that requires awareness. But the child who can think, and make those decisions that are needed; that child is sprung from the garden and given dominion over the Earth...

Hm, I always had a problem with this 'parents want their children to disobey'. Human nature doesn't want to be proven wrong, in fact, even as I type, some part of me wants everyone to agree with me and tell me that, yep, I'm right, my take on it is the only true and correct one. We've learned to handle the fact that people will disagree and that we just aren't that smart, but deep down inside, every single human being thinks that their way is the only way. And it's not different when it comes to raising children. I've never met anybody 'not' trying to impose their views on life, universe, and the rest on their children. Lucky for us, the 'yeah, but I know better' - gene starts working very early in life, so those bastard kids just won't play along. Lucky, since I do agree that in this disobedience also lies the key to our survival: maybe some day there will be enough kids who do learn to say no to temptation and start thinking global (and with it, selflessly) or, to stay in the picture, stop chewing the damn apple and just spit it out.

 

[Cassie]

Aren't most children selfish? Why should we expect Adam and Eve to not behave with innocent selfishness? Besides, God put that tree there knowing they'd eat from it.

 

[Ilyanna]

I'd even go as far as saying most grown-ups are selfish, too.

Why should we expect Adam and Eve to not behave with innocent selfishness?

Cassie, I think we shouldn't. Basically, I think the story is a very good description of the way humans are, how they function, if you will. IMO, their action reg. the tree of knowledge represents an aspect of human nature.
That doesn't mean that humans couldn't act differently, though. If anything, I'm a bit disappointed that after all that time, after all those beautiful allegories (and even if you do take Genesis literally, it is a great lesson about human nature), we still haven't learned that much. But that's just me, and solely based on my interpretation of the story.

Besides, God put that tree there knowing they'd eat from it.

That God, such a trickster, lol!
I guess he must have known, since he's depicted as being all-knowing, correct? But does that really matter in this context? God knows everything, but he still lets humans do what they want to do, he is confronting them with some situations and then allows them to learn by their own experiences.

 

[Dual]

Christians are ridiculous and I refuse to even engage in this discussion as it is rooted in false premises.

<3 Ily.

 

[Ilyanna]

Oh, I don't know, Dual. I have to admit that it's pretty difficult for me to discuss God and Genesis since I don't believe in those, but then again, I think the bible is a really, really good source for philosophical thoughts. In this case, the idea of the story being a parable, and the fact that we have different opinions what it tries to say, is pretty intriguing.
My opinion about the people having used the bible for their purposes, or about those believing in it to an extent I can't follow, really doesn't play into it.

Oh, and I love you, too

 

[Dual]

The Bible is a source of lots of kewl philosophical thought, if you're into stonings, infanticide, and social oppression. :S:

 

[Ilyanna]

So you also dismiss Machiavelli's 'The Prince' because it contains stuff like

'Whoever conquers a free town and does not demolish it commits a great error and may expect to be ruined himself. '

'A better course is to establish colonies. This is inexpensive, and offends only the few citizens whose lands are taken; and those become poor and powerless, while those uninjured will be compliant, for fear it should happen to them. Men ought either to be well treated or crushed; they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, therefore injury ought to be of such a kind that one does not fear revenge'

or Hobbes' 'Leviathan', which basically says that all power should be concentrated in the ruler, who has the right to enforce said power with all means available?

Do you think that it is even possible to shun every source with what we deem questionable and downright unethical ideas when studying philosophy?

 

[Cassie]

That God, such a trickster, lol!
I guess he must have known, since he's depicted as being all-knowing, correct? But does that really matter in this context? God knows everything, but he still lets humans do what they want to do, he is confronting them with some situations and then allows them to learn by their own experiences.

I have a problem with the idea that God lets anyone do anything. If God is all knowing, then it's all been predetermined and there is no free will.



(I don't believe any of this either, but sometimes I enjoy discussing Christianity. It has a powerful grip on the world, so I think it's important and interesting.)

 

[Ilyanna]

Like it or not - the bible is a source of ideas that still have major - MAJOR - influence on our societies, our way of dealing with others, our ethical backgrounds. I truly believe that it is a good idea to try and communicate with those who believe in its contents, and especially with those who are willing to discuss it, who are open to listen to other interpretations than those the church preaches to them.

Same can be said about the Qur'an, the Vedas, the Kapital.... the list is endless.


ETA: Ha, Cassie, you beat me to it. This bit was directed at Dual

 

[Ilyanna]

I have a problem with the idea that God lets anyone do anything. If God is all knowing, then it's all been predetermined and there is no free will.

Ah, but all-knowing does not equal predetermination. God is supposed to be timeless, so just because he knows what you will do next in your space-time-continuum does not mean that you can't change your mind. It's just that he also knows that you will change your mind.