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Avengers: Endgame

I probably won't see it till it's on demand or whatever, but I did want to comment on the severe disappointment I feel in Jimmy Fallon's sustained mediocrity. Everyone in that video was crying out to be released, trapped by the confines of their contractual promotional obligations.
 
two niggles.

How does Clint and hulk hold infinity stones without dying?

If everyone comes back five years after they left how does Peter just go back to school and everyone is still the same age?
 
also if everyone is returned to the exact spot where they vanished but give years later, anyone who was on a plane, boat, submarine, spaceship, or even a car, is going to have a short lived return.
 
I would assume they're returned to their exact point in time as well as space. Like the snap never happened at all and they never disappeared.
 
What's most impressive about the movie is that it actually does feel like an ending (for some of the characters anyway.) When Cap showed up as Clint Eastwood at the end I nearly thought "that can't be real, they need him for other movies!" then realised it's his last movie and they can actually write an ending for the character this time. When Tony died (which was done very well and I loved that Pepper finally became Rescue by the way!) it wasn't a mystical comic book reversible type death where he faded away or got frozen in magical amber or something. He just lay there for a long time with his eyes open to let you know "yep, he's dead!" I was also surprised and impressed that they didn't undo the five year time jump. Before the movie I was assuming everything would be reset to right after the snap to not upset the status quo but no, we had five years of life going on then 3.5 billion people coming back. That's consequences. (Of course how much something like Spider-Man: Homecoming follows this up remains to be seen and it's lucky Ned and Zendaya and the like all got snapped too and stay the same age as Peter!)

I know it's unlikely but I hope the Black Widow movie takes place during the missing five years. I liked that she seemed to become the leader of the Avengers in that time and one most dedicated to keeping up the fight. I do wish she'd got to fight in the big final battle and didn't have to miss it due to death.

There was definitely tonal whiplash at time, such as when it went from Fat Thor comedy to Hawkeye slaughtering Japanese men. Infinity War probably felt more like a cohesive movie because it kept the focus on Thanos' quest whereas this was all over the place. But I kind of like that it kept the feel of a huge comics crossoever and that kind of tonal shift is unavaoidable when you've got such vastly different character interacting? I like that what might be the biggest movie of all time is full of weird comic book stuff like Rocket poking Natalie Portman with a big wacky device, the kind of stuff they'd never have done when the MCU was just starting.

It's wild that Gamora and Nebula have the best devloped relationship in the whole of the MCU.
 
I like how it subverts expertations in a good way, like how Thor gets fat and never loses the weight, and the fact Tony probably ruined millions of lives by bringing everyone back five years later, how many were in planes or on ships? If they come back in the same place their return is short lived.

Also how many people commuted suicide when their loved ones left, or got married again.

Hulk could have made everyone come back at the moment they left and everyone would be fine, but the five year gap remained so that he wouldn't lose the child he ended up not seeing grow up anyway.

I hope thor dosnt overstay his welcome in the gaurdians, I know he can do comedy, but I think his inclusion takes something away from the original team.
 
whisky said:
I like how it subverts expertations in a good way, like how Thor gets fat and never loses the weight, and the fact Tony probably ruined millions of lives by bringing everyone back five years later, how many were in planes or on ships? If they come back in the same place their return is short lived.

Also how many people commuted suicide when their loved ones left, or got married again.

Hulk could have made everyone come back at the moment they left and everyone would be fine, but the five year gap remained so that he wouldn't lose the child he ended up not seeing grow up anyway.

I hope thor dosnt overstay his welcome in the gaurdians, I know he can do comedy, but I think his inclusion takes something away from the original team.
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Millions of other children would have been born during the five years as well as Tony's. I imagine Banner wish for everyone to be safely returned. Of course there would still be huge consequences like the suicides and everything. I'd watch a Disney+ show that just dealt with the aftermath of everyone coming back (they'll never do one.)
 
whisky said:
I saw it, there is no after credits scene.

That's all I want to say until other people have seen it.
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Sadly, I stopped reading before getting to this, so I sat through to the bitter end of the MPAA rating before nipping off to the bathroom to pee like Austin Powers.
 
OK. Finally saw it. We're probably past spoilers--or if you haven't seen it, you probably have the sense not to open this thread but still...SPOILERS FOLLOW....

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And I haven't seen "Spiderman" yet, so apologies if some of this is asked and answered in that.

They did so well for the first 2 acts. They were careful to obey valid time travel laws--while poking fun at them with the movie references. They didn't undo anything that had already happened. Well, I mean, they undid the big thing about half of life disappearing. But even though the consequences of bringing everyone back at the moment It happened were negligible, it could have created a Grandfather Paradox.

For the non-time-travelers out there, a Grandfather Paradox is a kind of temporal Moebius Strip. If you travel back in time and impregnate your grandmother (Ew!) you have to have first been born to your mother to be able to travel back in time. So it's impossible for it to happen. I feel like I'm explaining this badly. But that's the name of the paradox. Still, I'll use a simpler example. Let's say that, from 2012-2017 or so, Thanos collects Infinity Stones so he can wipe out 1/2 of all life and is successful, making you come up with a plan to time-travel to seamlessly steal the Infinity Stones *before* they were destroyed to undo Thanos' act in the present--and then return said stones the instant they were borrowed--you'd be obeying the Grandfather Paradox. But let's say that in 2014 Thanos magically gets wind of this plot and magically comes to the present (his future--after he's dead) (I'll come back to those both later) to undo what you've undone, it's a pretty big goddamn violation of the Grandfather Paradox to kill 2014 Thanos in 2024 (or 2019 or whenever "Five years later..." takes place. If Thanos 2014 is killed--even if it is in 2024--he doesn't collect up the Infinity Stones. Which means...well, it pretty much means a lot of the MCU Movies of the past several years "Infinity War" never happened. And if "Infinity War" never happened, Gamora, Black Widow, and Tony never died, half of life wasn't wiped out and there was no reason to go back in time to retrieve the Infinity Stones. Cap has no reason to go back and return the stones and Meow-Mewo to the timeline, and doesn't risk fucking things up with his dalliances with Agent Carter.

On a more mundane note, Captain Marvel should be renamed Captain Deus Ex Machina, because if there ever was one...arrives in the nick of time to save Iron Man. Arives in the nick of time to destroy Thanos' Death Ship--but still needs help (GIRL POWER!) to get the nuInfinity Guantlet through the, um, gauntlet--while failing anyhow. Speaking of Deus ex Machina, now convenient is it that Future Nebula's cybernetics are somehow magically tied to Past Nebula's cybernetics so Thanos can be tipped off that he's about to be retroactively defeated--across stellar distances. I couldn't make crappy old HF radios work with crappy frequencies over 15-25 miles but Thanos accidentally gets the key bit of info that queers The Plan? And then the same Plot Requirement Magic keeps Nebula from escaping--but allows Past Nebula to replace her--AND! They figure out a way--on the fly--to use the Avengers equipment to send not a single person with a suit and a bracelet, but an ENTIRE GODDAMNED DEATH SPACESHIP AND INVASION ARMY through into The Future. HOW? HOW?!

Of course the entire timeline is effed anyway the moment Loki seizes the day and buggers off with the Tessaract.

I guess I should just suck it up and Trust Disney/Marvel. (Although Disney gave us "The Return of The Return of The Jedi" and "Mary Sue: The Last Jedi" so...) Maybe they didn't just say "Shit, we're over 3 hours already, we've got to figure out a way to wrap this up." Maybe they were deliberately sloppy so they can use this all to bring some characters back. I dunno. We'll see.
 
She showed up to save Tony because the Avengers presumably sent her (after they called her in the Captain Marvel mid credits scene, which they probably should have included in Endgame.) Literally every hero showed up at the end (presumably someone called her back to Earth before the battle) so I don't see what would be unsual about her showing up then.

Time travel doesn't make sense in any movie. Ever. Except maybe Bill and Ted. They "explained" it in such a vague way that the majority of the audience who don't care about time travel rules would think "well that explains i!!" and everyone else would just think "oh they're just doing whatever they want" and go with it.
 
CaptainWacky said:
She showed up to save Tony because the Avengers presumably sent her (after they called her in the Captain Marvel mid credits scene, which they probably should have included in Endgame.)
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They couldn't have sent her. None of the other Avengers knew where Stark, Parker, and Strange went. The closest we could get to that is Banner having seen Stark and Strange fighting these guys, but that's still pretty flimsy unless Captain Marvel already knew who the Black Order was, knew they were connected with Thanos, and went to Titan looking for Thanos, but not looking for Quill's ship -- and found Stark and Nebula just incidentally while she was looking for Thanos. But no way the Avengers "sent" her out there to get Stark. They couldn't have known that's where he was.

As far as the time travel element goes, the film explains that: alternate timelines. You can't go back in time within your own timeline. Imagine you have a time machine that's just a button that sends you one half second into the past in your own timeline. Better not push that button, because if you do, you'll timelock yourself. Why? Because if you push that button, you'll go back to the exact instant where you haven't closed the circuit yet. You can't go back any further than that, because further back than that, the machine isn't sending you back. You can't go forward anymore, either, because you can only go as far forward as the point where the machine is sending you backward. You put yourself in an inescapable temporal headlock and trap yourself in that exact moment, unable to go forward or backward.

The movie offers a workaround for the Grandfather Paradox (which Volpone apparently totally misunderstood, by the way): The Grandfather Paradox actually goes like this:

If you go back in time and kill your own grandfather before he has children, your father won't be born. If your father isn't born, neither will you be born, which means you never exist and never go back in time to kill your own grandfather. Simply, you can't do it. Not within your own timeline, anyway, but I covered that bit above.

Thus, alternate timelines, You can go into the past of an alternate timeline, kill the alternate version of your grandfather -- but that only prevents the birth of the alternate timeline version of you, not the version of you that does the deed. Your grandfather hasn't been affected at all; he's part of your past and can't be affected in any way by you. (Of course, a version of you from an alternate timeline could come along and retroactively wipe you out without affecting himself, too. This gives me a story idea.)

So when the Avengers go back in time to collect the Infinity Stones, it's not their timeline's version of the Infinity Stones. That 2014 Thanos that comes to 2023 isn't the same Thanos they fought in Infinity War; it's an alternate version. They already fought "their" version, this is a new (but basically identical) version.

[Nebula is fitting a time travel suit onto Clint Barton]Banner: Clint, now you're gonna feel a little discombobulated from the chronoshift. Don't worry about that.
James Rhodes: Wait, wait, wait a second. Let me ask you something. If we can do this, you know…go back in time, why don't we just find baby Thanos, you know, and… [makes a gesture of strangling a baby with a rope, complete with "choking sound"]
Banner: [disgusted] First of all, that's horrible.
Rhodes: It's Thanos.
Banner: And secondly, time doesn't work that way. Changing the past doesn't change the future.
Scott: Look, we go back, we get the stones before Thanos gets them? Thanos doesn't have the stones. Problem solved.
Clint Barton: Bingo.
Nebula: That's not how it works.
Barton: Well, that's what I heard.
Banner: Wait, but who? Who told you that?
Rhodes: [counting with his fingers] Star Trek, Terminator, Timecop, Time After Time…
Scott: …Quantum Leap…
Rhodes: Wrinkle in Time, Somewhere in Time…
Scott: Hot Tub Time Machine...
Rhodes: Hot Tub Time Machine, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, basically, any movie that deals with time travel.
Scott: Die Hard? No, that's not one.
Rhodes: This is known.
Banner: I don't know why everyone believes that, but that isn't true. Think about it. If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past, which can't now be changed by your new future…
Nebula: Exactly.
Scott: [confused] So, Back to the Future is a bunch of bullshit?

Actually, the only thing bullshit about BTTF is that 1985 Marty McFly went back to 1955A -- because as I explained way up top there, he can't have gone back within his own timelilne -- and went forward again -- to 1985A. There should have been a 1985A Marty McFly already there, one who had grown up with 1955A's George and Lorraine McFly.
 
Credit, where due, apparently the entire rest of the Internet is wrong with you, about what the Grandfather Paradox is. Why would anyone want to KILL Grandpa? On the other hand, it makes perfect sense to want to knock boots with Gramma. :soma:
 
There is supposed to be a deleted scene of Rocket telling Carol about the Benatars homing beacon, she wasn't rescuing Stark, she was rescuing the guardians, that's why Rocket looked so sad when only Nebula got off, up to that point he only knew for sure that Groot was gone.
 
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