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Clarify for me....

The Question said:
Not under affirmative action, they don't, which is the biggest problem with it.

Of course they do.

Nubmer_6 said:
I'm verifying it. You can believe me or not, but it is the truth.

Whether or not it's true, it's an anecdote. I thought it was odd that you'd make a completely unscientific anecdotal argument, and in the very next paragraph chastise someone for not relying on "statistically derived" evidence.

Number_6 said:
As for psychology, what you're talking about is a study that actually used empirical evidence. The psychology that you generally appear to be referring to is the social science crap that starts with an assumption and then systematically discards any and all evidence that doesn't support that assumption in order to be able to claim that their assumption is supported by the evidence.

In other words, all studies that don't support your political agenda automatically use flawed methodology.

Read "The Gender Similarities Hypothesis" in the September 2005 issue of American Psychologist. If you have any specific methodological critiques, I'd be more than happy to hear you out.
 
Send me a copy.

I have no political agenda in this matter. You're the one with the political agenda, my dear. What I'm interested in is the facts.
 
I will read it as soon as I have the time. Right now, I'm making my way through a very, very, very long eighteenth-century novel that I'm teaching this week.
 
Let's put one thing out on the table to start with. The fraction of individuals interested in going on in science is exceedingly small compared to any of the percentages listed, and by no means are successful scientists going to represent an unbiased cross-section neurologically.
Number_6 said:
And to quit screaming about why women are "underrepresented" in those fields. Because the one big reason why there aren't as many women in those fields is because female undergrads don't choose to go into them.
However, why many female undergrads don't choose to go into the field has everything to do with how the courses are taught.

For example, physics programs may dramatically increase the number of female majors to ~50%.

Note that female majors prior to the changes in their curriculum averaged 19%, on par with the national average for such.

The primary deterrents seem to be social. One thing worth particularly noting is how dramatically the numbers have continued to shift over time. Read the second article in detail; you'll find that there have been a very large number of studies conducted on the specific issue of women in physics and education. The problem starts in high school, and with the social pressures of high school.

These studies have indicated that a large number of specific and quantifiable barriers exist, deterring women from deciding to study physics, widely known as the most masculine of the sciences demographically. (While 60% of biology degrees at the BS level are awarded to women, only 19% of physics degrees are awarded to women.)

As a curious and incidental side effect of making programs "woman-friendly," we find incidentally that racial minorities within the physics field as well as other traditionally under-represented groups are represented in greater quantities... and the typical male student does better as well.

What is the case here is at least as much a difficulty of the educational techniques as any biological tendency. It is not that women have difficulty grasping physics (as even noted misogynist, sexist, and world-class physicist [deceased] Feynmann notes) as much as they have difficulty with the educational techniques traditionally used in the sciences.

Now, to talk numbers as to what that study really says...

Examine, if you will, the problem of the "male" or "female" brain. You're presented with a random brain, and you're to guess which one it is, based on the study originally cited above.

Your chances of guessing correctly whether it is a male or female brain based on how it's acting? 70%.

Thus, even if the scientific process was a "male" process (as some feminist philosophers have suggested), we would expect from that study no worse than a 70-30 split on pure biology in general terms.

Considering the slightly greater percentage of women who survive to adulthood and are admitted into institutions of higher education (crime, military, etc etc - all pull men away in far greater numbers), 2:1.

At the top levels of biology itself, however, we see a 90-10 split, if I'm to trust the figures in that article. This isn't something you can try to explain with that study... the biological effect simply isn't dramatic enough.
 
WordInterrupted said:
Of course they do.

Really? Employers are free to entirely ignore affirmative action if they choose to by hiring the individual they feel is most qualified for the position, rather than "hiring for diversity"?
 
WordInterrupted said:
Clarissa?

No, not quite that long.

I don't know why I do this to myself. I'm all vim and vigor when I put the syllabus together, but when the time comes to actually fight the battle of teaching such a long work to gen ed students, I'm tired and worn out.

Sigh.

I think this is why I enjoy teaching film so much more than literature anymore. The battle to just get them to pay attention is so much more easily won.
 
Friday said:
"Male brain" vs "female brain"? I think someone has viewed Spock's Brain one too many times.

Nurture. Simple as that.

So, in your opinion, nuture trumps everything. Men and women's brains "aren't wired differently", you explicitly state,

Really? So you believe that gays and lesbians are made not born? Then you can see why the Religious Right doesn't want gays and lesbians to adopt. I mean, who would want a kid to turn gay because his parents are gay? Why would you wish to subject a kid to being "different"? :roll:

One thing in that Newsweek article is very telling: Girls may not want to be into math and science because they're "afraid of not getting a date to the prom". So? A guy wouldn't care about that. I wonder why girls do??
 
Big Dick McGee said:
So, in your opinion, nuture trumps everything. Men and women's brains "aren't wired differently", you explicitly state,

Really? So you believe that gays and lesbians are made not born? Then you can see why the Religious Right doesn't want gays and lesbians to adopt. I mean, who would want a kid to turn gay because his parents are gay? Why would you wish to subject a kid to being "different"? :roll:

Good point. Too bad the "mind over matter" sociologists will utterly ignore it.

One thing in that Newsweek article is very telling: Girls may not want to be into math and science because they're "afraid of not getting a date to the prom". So? A guy wouldn't care about that. I wonder why girls do??

I thought the PC propaganda was that women are supposed to be smarter than men. Seeing as that line of BS has been in circulation for at least a few decades now, I would imagine boys would expect their prom dates to be smarter than they are. :?
 
Really? Employers are free to entirely ignore affirmative action if they choose to by hiring the individual they feel is most qualified for the position, rather than "hiring for diversity"?

Of course they are.
 
Why are we debating nature vs. nurture, anyway? I thought most scientists agreed that it's not one or the other, but a combination of both that makes us who we are.
 
Really! 'Cause -- call it a hunch -- I think you're full of shit on that one!

If you can prove me wrong, more power to you, but you aren't going to prove anything by merely asserting that I'm "full of shit."
 
^^I wasn't proposing to prove anything, Pee-Wee. Just pointing out that, as in most situations where you've involved yourself, you present every appearance of being brimful of the brown. ;)
 
Morrhigan said:
Why are we debating nature vs. nurture, anyway? I thought most scientists agreed that it's not one or the other, but a combination of both that makes us who we are.

Because the social "scientists" refuse to take this middle ground, and continue to argue that all is nurture.
 
^^Yet they reject the notion that gays and lesbians are "made". They continue to believe they are "born". If male and female brains are the same, then we must learn our sexual preference, right? Seems logical to me. Thus, the more you're around gay people, the more you'll find that's the "right" sexual orientation.

Perhaps the religious right is on to something when they claim that gays indoctrinate our youth into their ranks? Hey, if our brains are all the same when we're born, and nurture takes over things like gender identity and sexual preference, it's only logical that kids who are raised by gays and surrounded by gays will "turn" gay, right?

:roll:
 
BDM, this is the second time you've brought this up, so you must really want it addressed. I will oblige.

Sexual orientation isn't specifically a male or female trait. No one has ever said that either gender is predisposed to homosexuality due to gender specific brain chemistry. It's not a gender specific trait that predisposes one towards sexual orientation, it's a human specific trait.
 
^^That's because drawing the logical conclusion that homosexuality must also be a product of nurture is no longer the politically correct argument.

Not that I believe that homosexuality is the product of nurture. Enough studies have been done and enough physiological brain differences discovered to lay that theory to rest permanently, I would think.

The nurture model is a political one, formulated in the wake of the fascination with eugenics in the early part of the twentieth century, a fascination that ultimately led to Hitler's theories of race and eugenics. The political left in the academy, desperate to discredit such theories, moved to a completely nurture model of the self.

And we all know how scrupulous the academic left is about admitting its mistakes. How many are still apologists for Marxism, or, even worse, Stalinism?
 
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