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ethnic integration in US cities.

thanks.

However, I wonder if that information is regional. For example, I am not seeing those statistics in my area and from what my co-worker told me about parts of southern Texas where she worked, those statistics also wouldn't fit. Perhaps further from the border they do.
Nope. Nationally representative sample, and their findings match up to the census data.
There is a rather large effect of citizenship on language learning - it appears that, among first-generation immigrants, citizenship, and the civic responsibility that comes with it, makes english language skills spike way up. Obviously, non-citizens will be in greater proportions at the border.


Non-Hispanic students that attend the little school at the end of my street have to learn to speak Spanish. A friend of mine who lives in San Antonio has a 12 year-old daughter who had to learn Spanish in school - not as a choice.
Learning a second language is not a bad thing. It's required in Canada, it's required in Europe. I'd be worried about your education system if your students weren't required to learn a second language, to be honest.
 
Used to require a foreign language elective to graduate high school. However, we had a choice between French, German, and Spanish. Now, Spanish is required. That is my gripe.

I would agree with your theory on the citizenship aspect. However, the co-workers experience in south Texas doesn't fit that either. There are communities of persons born and raised in the US and comprised of families that are several generations in country - which makes them automatic citizens - and they do not speak any English.

I need to add this though. As much as my particular area seems to at this time be overrun with non-English speaking Mexican persons, I have always known and worked with a large number of persons of Mexican ancestry born in America or immigrated here legally as small children with their families and they speak English fluently, some speak English only. My questions and concerns are about what I believe are fairly recent changes in the attitudes regarding language.
 
over here, we can choose between English and French in 5th grade, and in certain types of schools in 7th grade we can choose again between French and Latin. A few schools also offer Spanish, Russian, Czech or ancient Greek.
I had English from grades 5 to 13 and Latin from grades 7 to 13. (In our school system you have 4 years of primary school and then 4-9 years of secondary schools, depending on the type of school you choose; I took the longest one, a school type which approximately equals a combination of your secondary school, high school and college).
 
There isn't in the US!

But, seriously, I do think your fears are really silly and anecdotal, and they aren't backed up by any data whatsoever.

You may think that but you also don't live where I live. Your opinion is based on data that is apparently flawed or outdated, may even be deliberately skewed to fit an agenda, and isn't formed from first hand experience from living in, working in, visiting, or otherwise being engaged in the area of discussion.
 
You are, literally, the Colbert conservative caricature of "Facts? Pshaw, who needs facts? I have my gut!"

Human beings are notoriously unreliable at integrating new first-hand information if it conflicts with their worldview, which is why it's useful to have objective, reliable studies. If you're going to discard facts because they conflict with what you want to believe, you're not really worth engaging.
 
I like the Boston one because you can see pretty clearly where integration mostly worked (Jamaica Plain, some of Roslindale) and where it pretty clearly didn't (Mattapan, Roxbury, Hyde Park, Dorchester).
 
Actually, I don't have a side in this. Remember, I'm not allowed to have a side. I'm white so I don't count.
ignored for snark and inaccuracy
Just because I have a real fear that I will be 80 years old living in a neighborhood where I'm the only one who speaks English and that is the only language I speak, just means that I have to learn to speak Spanish - right, or move to someplace other than my home in hopes of finding other English speaking persons? It is intolerant and racist and wrong, etc., for me to expect other persons living in the United States to speak English.
This is a very real fear shared by many people who see their neighborhoods become integrated by other nationalities. You can substitute whatever town and whatever immigrant/racial group you want. At its core it's called xenophobia, fear of other races. There are real concerns in play, for example the property values of a given neighborhood can drop if the influx of new residents is poor, criminal element, etc. However this can happen regardless of race. Luck of the draw, really, which neighborhoods thrive and which decline. My own current town has a number of fantastic neighborhoods that were once slums, and vice versa. The denominator is business and community, not race.

I'm telling you what is a fact in my neighborhood. The school roll of the little school at the end of my street tells the tale. Over the last 20 years the student diversity has swapped one end of the spectrum for the other - from predominately white with few Hispanics and some blacks to predominately Hispanic with few whites and some blacks.
But you have yet to describe how this change has directly negatively affected you in any place other than your emotions. No one has jailed or ticketed you for speaking English, no one has fired you or committed a crime against you based on your language choice so far as you've shared; no one has antagonized you in any way except the one anecdote about a woman in a store who played music you don't like and asked you "how are you today?" in another language. Oh, the indignity of being well-wished and not knowing it.

What would be an interesting factor... I'm curious to know on what information you based your statements. Was it from something you read, were taught in school, or from first hand experience?
edited for brevity. To answer your question re: generational language shift. It is a statistical fact based on decades of research and observation from previous waves of immigration the world over. Overwhelmingly the standard pattern of language assimilation follows the 'three generation' rule: 1st generation immigrants rarely if ever pick up the new language; second generation, or first native born, learn the new language but prefer to speak the old mother tongue at home; the third generation from immigrant roots almost entirely speaks the new language and frequently doesn't retain a working knowledge of the old.

You can find this information in hundreds of studies of worldwide linguistic shifts. I learned it in college linguistics but it's pervasive. Look up "language shift" "third generation assimilation" or any variation of related terms and you'll find all you need. Here's a very good business oriented article on the subject of language assimilation and the needs of business, and specifically compares modern immigration patterns (in the era of bilingual ATM's) to previous waves.

And in answer to your question of where I learned it: college taught me the terminology, but I have lived in literally dozens of differing communities in my lifetime. I like to think my life experience as far and away richer and more diverse than the average "born-and-raised-here" person, not by design but by simple exposure to the new and different. So does my information and knowledge come from what I read? Yes. Education? Yes. Life experience? Yes.
Any other questions?
 
It seems like the language thing is different along the border because people coming into the country are concentrated there. It probably does seem like they're not bothering to learn English, but I bet most of the adults do know at least some English, and most of the younger people are probably fluent in English. Of course there would most likely be a slightly larger concentration of people who do not speak English there, than in the rest of the country.
 
It seems like the language thing is different along the border because people coming into the country are concentrated there. It probably does seem like they're not bothering to learn English, but I bet most of the adults do know at least some English, and most of the younger people are probably fluent in English. Of course there would most likely be a slightly larger concentration of people who do not speak English there, than in the rest of the country.

There is a slowdown associated with immigrants who are reinforced by continuing waves of more immigrants, but even along the border that slowdown is not drastic enough to halt the established pattern of assimilation by more than one generation.
 
Is that pertinent to the discussion? Does it make my argument more, or less, convincing?
It may matter as far as first languages are concerned. If you are Latino and grew up in the US, then you automatically have 2 first languages (which imo gives you an advantage over most of us).

However, it does not make your arguments more or less convincing in any way whatsoever. That is a matter of character and not of skin colour.
 
It may matter as far as first languages are concerned. If you are Latino and grew up in the US, then you automatically have 2 first languages (which imo gives you an advantage over most of us).
This isn't actually necessarily true! Most second-generation latinos are bilingual, yes, but only 50% of third generation latinos are (with ~47% being unilingual anglos, and ~3% being unilingual hispanos), and it keeps declining from there. By the fourth generation, latinos are more likely to be unilingual anglos than bilingual.
 
eloisel said:
Actually, I don't have a side in this. Remember, I'm not allowed to have a side. I'm white so I don't count
ignored for snark and inaccuracy
Eloisel raises a valid point here imo. For a caukasian it is wise to stay out of such discussions as they are an absolute lose/lose situation.
If we side with the caukasians, the AAs and Hispanics will call us racist
if we side with the Hispanics, the AAs will call us racist
if we side with the AAs, the Hispanics will call us racist.
If we side with neither party, you call us snark.
Come on, that's not really you. You stroke me as someone who tries to be openminded and to see things without the filter of prejudice.
Either you accept our opinion whatever it may be or you accept that we'd rather not have an opinion. But not accepting either is quite a bit unfair.

*leans back waiting for the inevitable fool to butt in and call me Nazi, for the sole reason that I am German (regardless of the fact that I am a leftwing liberal and could hardly be further away from the right wing Nazi-scum)*
 
Eloisel raises a valid point here imo. For a caukasian it is wise to stay out of such discussions as they are an absolute lose/lose situation.
If we side with the caukasians, the AAs and Hispanics will call us racist
if we side with the Hispanics, the AAs will call us racist
if we side with the AAs, the Hispanics will call us racist.
If we side with neither party, you call us snark.
Come on, that's not really you. You stroke me as someone who tries to be openminded and to see things without the filter of prejudice.
Either you accept our opinion whatever it may be or you accept that we'd rather not have an opinion. But not accepting either is quite a bit unfair.

*leans back waiting for the inevitable fool to butt in and call me Nazi, for the sole reason that I am German (regardless of the fact that I am a leftwing liberal and could hardly be further away from the right wing Nazi-scum)*

Oh, come on, eloisel isn't raising a valid point, she's playing the "white person oppressed by political correctness" card. She has an irrational feel of immigration, and immigration from latin american countries in particular, and she says "you're going to accuse me of racism" to try and inoculate herself against being called out.
 
Well, yes. She jumps into the thread with "I'm afraid of immigrants because people have spoken spanish near me," and, when presented with evidence showing that hispanophones actually assimilate into english very quickly, generationally, she ignores the evidence and goes back to fear-mongering about how immigrants have a secret plan to exterminate english in the US.

People who have ignorant opinions who fly in the face of available evidence are going to be ridiculed, and no amount of bashing "political correctness" is going to change that.
 
how about we stop speculating what she meant and just wait for her to return here and explain? That would be safer than assumptions. As I see it, in the current situation it is impossible to say which of us is correct (or perhaps we're both wrong).
 
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