Hypocrite Notice

[Dirk Funk]

While I agree that they have the RIGHT to do it, and there doesn't appear to be any legal reason they can't, it doesn't mean I like it. It's insulting and a slap in the face. It makes me wonder about their motives. The attacks of 9/11 were perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam. What is the purpose of building a giant mosque right by ground zero? It's clear to me, that the intention was to mark a conquest. It has always been the Muslim tradition to build mosques on or near the site of a conquest. Especially since there is already an older mosque nearby and not a significant Muslim population in that area. The imam behind the mosque is also known for his extremest views. If American Muslims actually want to be seen as part of American society and distance themselves from the violent elements of their religion, (which, let's face it, are a huge percentage in the Middle East and North Africa.) then they need to not antagonize the rest of the country in this manner. I was going to say this mosque project is insensitive, but it really goes beyond that. It appears to be deliberately inflammatory. If the Muslims want to smooth things over with the rest of the country, this really isn't the way to do it.

 

[SAUSAGEMAN]

Sorry, I meant to get back to this. Not sure if the last line was an edit or if I just didn't remember it, but that's exactly what I was getting at. Left and Right are chiefly economic terms. The political compass website opened my eyes to this some years back. There are indeed four quadrants. Right Authoritarian, Right Libertarian, Left Authoritarian, Left Libertarian. Most of my views are close to the Libertarian Party platform. With some variations of course, since we're a party of free thinkers. This is where I ended up on the scale:

So, no it wasn't a typo. Since Left and Right are economic terms, not social terms, the far right in this country is made up of Libertarians, Objectivists, Anarcho-Capitalists, etc.

You're pretty much an authoritarian piece of shit.

 

[Dirk Funk]

First of all, "Sausageman", you need to get a dictionary. Nowhere did I mention race. Islam is not a race. It's an ideology. So get your facts straight, or GTFO. Nothing I said was factually inaccurate, which is why you discarded any attempt to argue facts and went directly to ad hominem attacks. Why don't you explain to me how a giant mosque being built deliberately close to the WTC by a radical imam is going to help foster positive relations between American Muslims and the rest of the country? The only thing it's accomplishing is opening a wound that was starting to heal and stirring up shit. You apparently didn't read the rest of what I wrote either. They have the right to build a house of worship on private property like anyone else, and if there is no legal reason to halt construction, they have every right to build it. However, the wisdom of doing so is in question.

 

[SAUSAGEMAN]

This is your "radical imam", retard. Quit believing everything you read on right-wing blogs.

We are here to assert the Islamic conviction of the moral equivalency of our Abrahamic faiths. If to be a Jew means to say with all one's heart, mind and soul Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ahad; hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one, Mr. Pearl.

If to be a Christian is to love the Lord our God with all of my heart, mind and soul, and to love for my fellow human being what I love for myself, then not only am I a Christian, but I have always been one Mr. Pearl.

And I am here to inform you, with the full authority of the Quranic texts and the practice of the Prophet Muhammad, that to say La ilaha illallah Muhammadun rasulullah is no different.

It expresses the same theological and ethical principles and values.

We are here especially to seek your forgiveness and of your family for what has been done in the name of Islam.

 

[Charlemagne]

How can you put a pacifist, politically neutral religion like Jehovah's Witnesses in the same sentence as violent religion like Islam?

Technically, the Quran tells Muslims to leave Jews and Christians alone, since they were "People of the Book".

And also, who rounded up the Jews in Jerusalem into a synagogue, and then set said synagogue on fire during the First Crusade? The Christians. The Muslims had NOTHING to do with that.

 

[Dirk Funk]

Technically, the Quran tells Muslims to leave Jews and Christians alone, since they were "People of the Book".

And also, who rounded up the Jews in Jerusalem into a synagogue, and then set said synagogue on fire during the First Crusade? The Christians. The Muslims had NOTHING to do with that.

We aren't talking about things that happened 1000 years ago. We're talking about the 21st century. Most of the world has moved on and evolved culturally. Guess who hasn't? That's right. The people that still stone women for adultery, conduct public beheadings of people caught being drunk in public, forcing women to dress like beekeepers or face severe punishment, and mutilate young girls' genitals. The same ones who do things like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...idow-shot-dead-Taliban-adultery-pregnant.html
And this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217424.stm
But they're really just "misunderstood" right?

 

[SAUSAGEMAN]

They're not "the same ones". There are 1.6 billion muslims on the planet, devoid of any central religious organisation handing down dogma. The people who want to build this mosque aren't practicing female genital mutilation in their spare time - they abhor it.

Mr. Abdul Rauf also founded the Shariah Index Project — an effort to formally rate which governments best follow Islamic law. Critics see in it support for Taliban-style Shariah or imposing Islamic law in America.

Shariah, though, like Halakha, or Jewish law, has a spectrum of interpretations. The ratings, Ms. Kahn said, measure how well states uphold Shariah’s core principles like rights to life, dignity and education, not Taliban strong points. The imam has written that some Western states unwittingly apply Shariah better than self-styled Islamic states that kill wantonly, stone women and deny education — to him, violations of Shariah.

After 9/11, Mr. Abdul Rauf was all over the airwaves denouncing terrorism, urging Muslims to confront its presence among them, and saying that killing civilians violated Islam. He wrote a book, “What’s Right With Islam Is What’s Right With America,” asserting the congruence of American democracy and Islam.

[...]

hose opponents repeat often that Mr. Abdul Rauf, in one radio interview, refused to describe the Palestinian group that pioneered suicide bombings against Israel, Hamas, as a terrorist organization. In the lengthy interview, Mr. Abdul Rauf clumsily tries to say that people around the globe define terrorism differently and labeling any group would sap his ability to build bridges. He also says: “Targeting civilians is wrong. It is a sin in our religion,” and, “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

This dude isn't the enemy, and I daresay he embodies the ideals of America much more than any of this project's opponents.

 

[SAUSAGEMAN]

They're not "the same ones". There are 1.6 billion muslims on the planet, devoid of any central religious organisation handing down dogma. The people who want to build this mosque aren't practicing female genital mutilation in their spare time - they abhor it.

Mr. Abdul Rauf also founded the Shariah Index Project — an effort to formally rate which governments best follow Islamic law. Critics see in it support for Taliban-style Shariah or imposing Islamic law in America.

Shariah, though, like Halakha, or Jewish law, has a spectrum of interpretations. The ratings, Ms. Kahn said, measure how well states uphold Shariah’s core principles like rights to life, dignity and education, not Taliban strong points. The imam has written that some Western states unwittingly apply Shariah better than self-styled Islamic states that kill wantonly, stone women and deny education — to him, violations of Shariah.

After 9/11, Mr. Abdul Rauf was all over the airwaves denouncing terrorism, urging Muslims to confront its presence among them, and saying that killing civilians violated Islam. He wrote a book, “What’s Right With Islam Is What’s Right With America,” asserting the congruence of American democracy and Islam.

[...]

hose opponents repeat often that Mr. Abdul Rauf, in one radio interview, refused to describe the Palestinian group that pioneered suicide bombings against Israel, Hamas, as a terrorist organization. In the lengthy interview, Mr. Abdul Rauf clumsily tries to say that people around the globe define terrorism differently and labeling any group would sap his ability to build bridges. He also says: “Targeting civilians is wrong. It is a sin in our religion,” and, “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.”

This dude isn't the enemy, and I daresay he embodies the ideals of America much more than any of this project's opponents.

 

[Further]

I support this extreme mosque. I think think ground-zero should be surrounded by buildings constructed by the various abrahamic religions that are constantly trying to one-up each other.

But the building on ground zero itself should be a giant fucking SYNAGOGUE with huge tentacles that envelope all the puny religious buildings around it and a giant Star of David on top that can be seen from the Middle East. This way, the next time the christian fucktards feel the need to outdo their muslim fucktard neighbors, they'll have easy access to loans at generous interest rates to help fund their righteous endeavor.

 

[Charlemagne]

We aren't talking about things that happened 1000 years ago. We're talking about the 21st century. Most of the world has moved on and evolved culturally. Guess who hasn't? That's right. The people that still stone women for adultery, conduct public beheadings of people caught being drunk in public, forcing women to dress like beekeepers or face severe punishment, and mutilate young girls' genitals. The same ones who do things like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...idow-shot-dead-Taliban-adultery-pregnant.html
And this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217424.stm
But they're really just "misunderstood" right?

You find stuff like that instructed to be the law in all three Abrahamic religions. Those just happen to be Islam's versions of those. Old Judeo-Christian law said that if a woman has sex after she's divorced, she's committed adultery. There are more examples of such ridiculousness in Judaism and Christianity as well.

P.S. A good chunk of Indonesia's population is Muslim, and so is most of Northern Africa's but do you see women dressed like beekeepers in those places? No. Don't blame a whole religion on the actions of a few extremists. In case that seems like hypocrisy to my evidence about the crusades, and the burning of the Jews in the synagogue, I was just pointing out that Christian extremists can be just as nasty as Islamic ones.

 

[Dirk Funk]

You find stuff like that instructed to be the law in all three Abrahamic religions. Those just happen to be Islam's versions of those. Old Judeo-Christian law said that if a woman has sex after she's divorced, she's committed adultery. There are more examples of such ridiculousness in Judaism and Christianity as well.

P.S. A good chunk of Indonesia's population is Muslim, and so is most of Northern Africa's but do you see women dressed like beekeepers in those places? No. Don't blame a whole religion on the actions of a few extremists. In case that seems like hypocrisy to my evidence about the crusades, and the burning of the Jews in the synagogue, I was just pointing out that Christian extremists can be just as nasty as Islamic ones.

Charlemagne, I know you're smarter than this. First of all, I'll address a nitpick, then move on to the rest. Remarriage was only considered adultery if there was no infidelity involved by either partners. Now to the rest.
Let's talk extremists for a minute. Of course there are extremists in almost every religion. It's the sheer amount of extremists of the Islamic persuasion as opposed to those of any other faith that's the issue. Also notice how when extremists of another faith commit acts of violence NOBODY is willing to claim them? But when violence in the name of Islam is committed, groups are stepping on each other to claim "credit".

Let's go further. It's not just lone wolf extremists we're talking about here. We're talking about entire populations sympathetic or supportive of these things. Imagine you took the members of the Westboro Baptist Church, multiplied them by the millions, then put them in charge of large governments which control significant natural resources and military forces. Yeah, it's kind of like that. That's what we have in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, etc. What I find truly mind blowing is the extent to which those on the Left will go to defend a belief system which is against almost everything they hold dear. I'm consistently amazed at the Saxton-esqe mental gymnastics performed to explain away or excuse the kinds of things that go on in those places. Or to try to somehow make a moral equivalence with Western/Secular/Non-Islamic Asian nations.

What happens if you're a gay person in the United States, Western Europe, Japan, etc? Not much. Now go to Iran or Saudi Arabia. You think you'll be "celebrated"? Nope. You'll likely be hung from a construction crane in the public square by the end of the day. What if you're a sexually liberated woman? Will you be embraced by society there? Sure. If by "embraced" you mean buried up to your neck in sand and rocks being thrown at you until you die a bloody pulp. But not before you've been publicly flogged, of course. But don't we have the occasional lynching, gay bashing or dragging behind a truck here? Yes. It happens, and the offenders, when caught are harshly punished. The difference is, those things are ILLEGAL here, whereas in those countries they are PART OF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM. If you can't see this you're either willfully blind or intellectually dishonest. I've known you for a while, and I know you're not either of those two.

 

[Charlemagne]

I never said it wasn't bad in the Middle-East. All I'm saying is that not all Muslims are evil, and that not all Christians are good. At least, that's what I'm trying to say. Do I think that women's rights need to be improved? Yes. Gay rights? Yes. If it was up to me, I'd start revolutions throughout that entire region in order for women and gays to have the same rights and priveleges as straight men. I am a BIG supporter of the Seperation of Church and State, and a hater of theocracies. And you know that in a Christian theocracy, gays would be just as abused as they are in Islamic theocracies. Look what's going on in Central Africa right now. Christians are killing gays, saying that they're sinners.

 

[Marquis De Sade]

Technically, the Quran tells Muslims to leave Jews and Christians alone, since they were "People of the Book".

Technically, that's incorrect. The Quran is highly inconsistent in regards of Ahl'ul Kitab (people of the book). In one passage, it does call for coexistence with them; in others, it forbids Muslims to befriend Christians and Jews, and equates them with other infidels and enemies of Islam.

Additionally, supposing what you're saying is true (which is not) what about polytheists, unbelievers, and other people who do not fit the "people of the book" description ? Should they be killed, pillaged, and and mistreated just because of their beliefs (or lack thereof) ?

Moreover, even Ahl'ul Kitab would be treated as second class citizens in an Islamic country. As per Islamic law, anyone who is not Muslim is a lesser citizen with less rights.

 

[Charlemagne]

Technically, that's incorrect. The Quran is highly inconsistent in regards of Ahl'ul Kitab (people of the book). In one passage, it does call for coexistence with them; in others, it forbids Muslims to befriend Christians and Jews, and equates them with other infidels and enemies of Islam.

Additionally, supposing what you're saying is true (which is not) what about polytheists, unbelievers, and other people who do not fit the "people of the book" description ? Should they be killed, pillaged, and and mistreated just because of their beliefs (or lack thereof) ?

Moreover, even Ahl'ul Kitab would be treated as second class citizens in an Islamic country. As per Islamic law, anyone who is not Muslim is a lesser citizen with less rights.

Okay, my ninth grade history teacher left out that part. I was just saying what I was taught. If that's the case, then the Abrahamic religions are even more messed-up than I thought.

 

[eloisel]

It is interesting that this project is being considered for economic development incentives. Guess that answers the question as to where the bulk of the financing, approx. $70 mil, is coming from.

 

[jack]

It's all private, Wheezie.

Which is the question I put to you all. This is how America works supposedly. This is supposed to be 100 million dollar community center.

I'm pretty sure a "no mosque zone" unless intuitive to zoning couldn't be constitutionally enforced.

What's the problem with having one there anyway? No Muslims downtown?

 

[jack]

And, you're rewriting history some on the WMD thing. NO one thought that idiot had anything but the extra pack of smokes they found him with in his underground bunker.

 

[SAUSAGEMAN]

And, you're rewriting history some on the WMD thing. NO one thought that idiot had anything but the extra pack of smokes they found him with in his underground bunker.

You fucking retard.

Tony Blair: “So far as our objective, it is disarmament, not regime change - that is our objective. Now I happen to believe the regime of Saddam is a very brutal and repressive regime, I think it does enormous damage to the Iraqi people... so I have got no doubt Saddam is very bad for Iraq, but on the other hand I have got no doubt either that the purpose of our challenge from the United Nations is disarmament of weapons of mass destruction, it is not regime change.”

Colin Powell: "The facts and Iraq's behavior show that Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction."

Ari Fleischer: "But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about."

 

[jack]

I'm a "retard"?

You've got to be shitting me that you're giving me Blair's bullshit as justification for anything other than being in on the scam?

Indeed y'all are sheep if you believe this dribble. We were had.

We're STILL being had.

 

[eloisel]

It's all private, Wheezie.

Which is the question I put to you all. This is how America works supposedly. This is supposed to be 100 million dollar community center.

I'm pretty sure a "no mosque zone" unless intuitive to zoning couldn't be constitutionally enforced.

What's the problem with having one there anyway? No Muslims downtown?

No, actually, they are looking to get economic development incentives.
Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing
That is part of my job, Jack, economic development incentives. I don't know New York law on ED projects, but I do know what local development corporations are and how they work. It is a tool to get businesses to move to cities to provide jobs for the citizens and to increase the tax base to pay for city services like water, roads, parks, libraries, etc. In this instance, the purpose of the corporation is to issue bonds to pay for the project. The project has to be financially able to repay the bonds. In this instance, the debt is tax free. In other words, they get $70 million tax free to build their project. Yes, they have to pay the $70 million bonds off and more than likely to qualify for an ED incentive program they will have to raise the ad valorem tax value of the property so many millions above the current value by a certain time, more than likely by January 1, 2012. However, what is the tax rate on $70 million in New York City right now? Probably 10%. You don't think that is a nice chunk of change to give them to build their project? They already got the property for about $14 million less than the asking price.

I'm all for economic development. It is good for people and communities. However, people need to know the mechanics of what they are doing instead of just blindly spouting some PC garbage to make themselves feel like they are enlightened, and educated, and morally righteous, and better than somebody else who doesn't see things the way they do.