Liberals are mentally disturbed

[Sarek]

Ha. The statement presented for discussion regards the sanity of liberals. Yes, they are insane.

Regardless of what Bush does between now and Jan. 20th, 2009, you can bet the policies of the next president will include even more benefits for illegal immigrants, including amnesty even if they don't call it such.

By the way, McCain is a liberal.

And I'd thought about taking up Spanish. At least I could drive to Mexico for work if they sent my job there. But another 4 years of a Republican president, well, the daily commute to China or the Mideast for work is going to be a bitch.

 

[bad dog]

McCain voters..............

 

[jack]

I'm a liberal. Christ, I'm still a fucking hippie.

 

[eloisel]

Darling Jack, I'm long time hippie. If you will think back, the original principle was everyone work and everyone share. That is not what is happening or what is proposed. What is proposed is the American taxpayer pay for everything that the illegal immigrant gets the benefit of although we do not entitle ourselves to the same thing. I do not think it is fair to make a person with more money pay more for something than a person with less money. I do not think it is fair to deny benefits to one person who comes in a few dollars above the poverty level when that person has been contributing to the system to pay for those benefits for those who don't contribute.

If you want to make health care affordable for everyone in this nation, then might try finding some ways to reduce the costs of health care.

I'd be interested to know how these other countries do it. I'd like to some real info instead of the typical chest beating "we're better than America because we have national healthcare" even though it sucks beans.

P.S. You may be a liberal, and you may be insane, but I still absolutely adore you.

 

[eloisel]

And I'd thought about taking up Spanish. At least I could drive to Mexico for work if they sent my job there. But another 4 years of a Republican president, well, the daily commute to China or the Mideast for work is going to be a bitch.

All I know is I was standing outside work the other morning with about 30 other people. I was the only one who spoke English as my first language, if they spoke English at all. Earlier tonight I was at Wal-Mart. I had to turn the boxes around to find the info in English. At the cash register, all the magazines were in Spanish. I live in America - not in Mexico! We've had a local school try to force students to learn Spanish. No. No. No. If they want to come here, they can learn to speak English. If Mexico is so bad they have to leave it, then why do they want to bring it here?

Oh, might want to check out who was busy selling us to China. Can we say "John Kerry?" And as far as the mideast, might want to look up how much we owe Saudi Arabia. They don't have to invade us - just call in our IOUs.

 

[The Dork Lord]

The time has come for me to say what I always say in these threads:

Both parties are twisted and evil.

The dems want to take away your right to free speech and to bear arms, and the the reps want to take away everything else.

As long as we keep playing into the 2 party bullshit brigade, we're all fucked either way.

 

[eloisel]

The thing is, if government is twisted and evil it is because we, the average citizen, is twisted and evil. The government is us. We used to be closer in what we wanted, just disagreed in the best way to go about obtaining that goal. Now, the freaking Democrats shout from every corner "Bush lied, people died," "Bush doesn't care about us because hurricanes hit the coast," "Bush is busting the Constitution because of [insert some damned stupid reason here]." Eggs, another one whom I positively adore, sits around screaming he is going to be hauled off to prison because he bitches about Bush. Yet it is people like Bush that makes sure guys like Eggs can bitch all he wants and no one does haul him off to prison or bury him under some military establishment. Liberals are insane because they live in no reality other than the "Hate Bush" reality. They are paralyzed by their insanity and unfit to run this country as that is all they can do - Hate Bush.

 

[Cassie]

I'm not a liberal and I hate Bush. Not because of his policies but because he is a terrible leader. He doesn't inspire confidence when he speaks, and he's so condescending. I completely understand that the president doesn't have the power to do a bunch of shit on his own, so I don't blame him for the things he doesn't have control over, but I do blame him for being an arrogant asshole.

 

[Sarek]

The thing is, if government is twisted and evil it is because we, the average citizen, is twisted and evil. The government is us. We used to be closer in what we wanted, just disagreed in the best way to go about obtaining that goal. Now, the freaking Democrats shout from every corner "Bush lied, people died," "Bush doesn't care about us because hurricanes hit the coast," "Bush is busting the Constitution because of [insert some damned stupid reason here]." Eggs, another one whom I positively adore, sits around screaming he is going to be hauled off to prison because he bitches about Bush. Yet it is people like Bush that makes sure guys like Eggs can bitch all he wants and no one does haul him off to prison or bury him under some military establishment. Liberals are insane because they live in no reality other than the "Hate Bush" reality. They are paralyzed by their insanity and unfit to run this country as that is all they can do - Hate Bush.

Aw bullshit. You sound like a brain washed bimbo. And I know you're far more intelligent than that.

Government stopped being about the people and stopped being run by the people years ago. Politicians don't give a rats ass what the average person has to say or wants from our government UNLESS it suits their agenda at the time. And usually, it's kicked to the side once they achieve their goals.

You are so blinded by hatred for Liberals that you seem to see every Republican with a golden halo around their head. Well here's the deal. If you're going to bury your head in the sand and believe in the impossible, do it in Iraq and perhaps you'll find the WMD's that Bush was looking for.

Bush has lied. He's run this government and this country into the ground and handed it over to special interests. He's killed our service men and women pursuing a wild goose chase in Iraq and allowed the worlds most dangerous individual to continue to remain free and scoff at us and our allies. He's alienated us from half the fucking planet and destroyed our standing in the world community.

The Republican party that I've watched for the last 8 years is one of the most vicious, vindictive, slanderous, nasty, hating, conniving, scandalous and corrupt entities I've seen in government in my 44 years. Bush and his cronies have single handily removed more constitutional rights and freedoms from the average American than at any other time in American history. They have violated the tenants of war, the articles of the Geneva conventions and shit on the moral and ethical foundation that created this country.

WE'RE supposed to take the high road. WE'RE supposed to be the moral and ethical compass for the rest of the planet to follow and emulate. But Bush has IGNORED our own down and out and poverty stricken people to continue to dump money and people into the sinkhole that is Iraq. Bush has sold this country to the Saudis and China to fund his war because for all intents and purposes, this country is bankrupt due to his excessive spending. Bush has clearly demonstrated that the "minorities" in this country don't mean shit to him. Katrina victims are STILL living in fucking trailers (The ones that could get them) while waiting for federal aide he promised but never delivered. Meanwhile, the rich are getting tax cuts and government perks while they ship our jobs over seas and shit on the very people that made them rich. The AMERICAN worker. Wages have stagnated, health insurance has gone through the roof, senior citizens have been screwed out of much NEEDED benefits and the education system is crumbling due to lack of funding and program cuts.

As for Eggs, you know why people who speak out aren't be tossed in prison? Because we DON'T HAVE THE FUCKING ROOM. It's not for lack of effort or desire. The whack job Republicans have long stated that anyone that disagrees with this president or this administration is a terrorist sympathizer and anti-American. If it was up to them, we'd be undergoing a modern version of McCarthyism.

And you call liberals insane? Bush is the nut job here. That guy has invoked religion and his religious beliefs in almost everything he's done. And you believe him. Yet the Muslims invoke religion and they're all fanatics that need to be eradicated. My god, the man has publicly stated God talks to him, and yet, no one's fitted him for a straight jacket?

I've never been enamored of either party. I've always stated, if a politicians lips are moving, their lying. But for you to sit and honestly try and pass off the Republican party so blatantly as the superior party in this country and toss around such a generalization as "all liberals are insane", makes me truly wonder where the hell you've been living the last 8 years. Perhaps under a pile of Bush's lost WMD's?

The choices in this up coming election scare the hell out of me. I don't like ANY of then. But I'll be breathing a tremendous sigh of relief when Mr. Asshat is finally out of office. Sadly, the problems he's created are going to continue to plague us for decades.

 

[Sarek]

All I know is I was standing outside work the other morning with about 30 other people. I was the only one who spoke English as my first language, if they spoke English at all. Earlier tonight I was at Wal-Mart. I had to turn the boxes around to find the info in English. At the cash register, all the magazines were in Spanish. I live in America - not in Mexico! We've had a local school try to force students to learn Spanish. No. No. No. If they want to come here, they can learn to speak English. If Mexico is so bad they have to leave it, then why do they want to bring it here?

Oh, might want to check out who was busy selling us to China. Can we say "John Kerry?" And as far as the mideast, might want to look up how much we owe Saudi Arabia. They don't have to invade us - just call in our IOUs.

You'll get no sympathy from me over Wal Mart. I avoid the place. I don't patronize any Wal Mart or any of it's subsidiaries. I've literally watched them destroy the economy in smaller towns and drive the small mom and pop outlets out of business.

And we wouldn't need foreign funding if George would stop spending. Can you imagine what the overdraft fee would be on -$9,000,000,000,000.00?

 

[eloisel]

Excellent posts and sorry I came in too late to respond tonight. I will come back to this.

I'd like to start with your statements:

Government stopped being about the people and stopped being run by the people years ago. Politicians don't give a rats ass what the average person has to say or wants from our government UNLESS it suits their agenda at the time. And usually, it's kicked to the side once they achieve their goals.

If people aren't running the government, what is? You'd be surprised just how much politicians care about what the "average person" has to say. You think these presidential hopefuls are out there stumping it because they didn't have something more fun to do? Have you ever been to a town or city hall meeting? Have you ever written your representatives? The only reason why something is kicked to the side is because that is what the voters want. Too many people do little more than bitch, moan and groan. So, who is getting what they want? The ones that vote, that go to council meetings, that write their reps. You think that is crap? I can tell you for certain that the issue of public transportation and the Cowboys Stadium were big issues in our city in the 2004 election. Many people wanted public transportation in our city - we're the largest in the country without it. But, it wasn't voted in. Many people are damned unhappy about the Stadium coming here but we got it. Why? Because people voted for it. George Bush was running for his 2nd term of office and you know how the super majority is so angry with him, hate his guts and accuse him of stealing not one but two elections. Now, this city has more than 300,000 people living in it. We also have a lot of voting age university students in this city - probably several thousand. Less than 5,000 people in this city voted in the 2004 election. Guess who got things their way? Them that voted. Believe it or not, that is how things work in this country.

 

[jack]

What a great thread this turned into.

I vote every year. Hasn't meant a fig in the last eight.

It will this year, I'm thinking. It's different in Vermont, Wheezie. We has us a different democratic mechanism. You have 300,000 people living in your city. We have less that twice that living in our entire state.

Makes our voices a little different. Takes what you say about the power of the vote and makes it real. Most of why I live here is I can help effect change outward, because the ripples Vermont makes reverberate through the bigger pond, affecting everything.

 

[eloisel]

Big Buisness Runs the government MONEY runs the government

Who do you think runs "Big Business?"
Employees and stockholders - people who like getting paid - that's who. MONEY doesn't give a rats ass if it multiplies or gets shredded in a machine. You telling me you don't like getting paid for working or that you don't want a return on your investments?

 

[eloisel]

You'll get no sympathy from me over Wal Mart. I avoid the place. I don't patronize any Wal Mart or any of it's subsidiaries. I've literally watched them destroy the economy in smaller towns and drive the small mom and pop outlets out of business.

And we wouldn't need foreign funding if George would stop spending. Can you imagine what the overdraft fee would be on -$9,000,000,000,000.00?

I have mixed feelings about the small mom and pops. This is the thing about economic stability in a community - you need a workplace, a workforce, housing for the workforce, and infrastructure to meet the workforce's needs. Mom and pops have a place in there but they don't have broad enough shoulders to hold up the community alone. Not saying that Wal-Mart is the ideal employer; however, mom and pop might employ 10 people whereas Wal-Mart could employ upwards of a couple of hundred depending on the size of the store. Not to mention, Wal-Mart is going to buy more from wholesale suppliers - thereby employing more people to manufacture the goods to meet the demand. Wal-Mart also has more bargaining power in purchasing to keep the prices down, which is good for the consumer. Wal-Mart is going to pay more in city, county, state, and federal taxes, too, than mom and pop. Roads get built off of tax dollars, as do water treatment facilities, libraries and schools. Those are good things. The mom and pops can survive in that atmosphere because people don't always want to park in the big parking lot, walk half a mile to the store and half a mile inside the store to get a gallon of milk when they can get it at the local convenience store for a little higher price. They can also survive with speciality items and services that the big retailers don't. Plus, not everybody is cut out to run their own business. I know I'd have starved a long time ago if someone wouldn't hire me to do whatever the hell it is I do.

 

[Sarek]

Who do you think runs "Big Business?"
Employees and stockholders - people who like getting paid - that's who. MONEY doesn't give a rats ass if it multiplies or gets shredded in a machine. You telling me you don't like getting paid for working or that you don't want a return on your investments?

Every company has majority share holders. And those are usually the VIPs and the board of directors. The average employee doesn't hold enough interest in the company to have much of a say in it. For most, it's an investment for retirement. The majority share holders are the ones that hire lobbyists to represent their interests. Which usually mean finding ways to to make laws, modify existing laws or change government to benefit themselves and their company. Regardless of the consequences.

 

[Sarek]

I have mixed feelings about the small mom and pops. This is the thing about economic stability in a community - you need a workplace, a workforce, housing for the workforce, and infrastructure to meet the workforce's needs. Mom and pops have a place in there but they don't have broad enough shoulders to hold up the community alone. Not saying that Wal-Mart is the ideal employer; however, mom and pop might employ 10 people whereas Wal-Mart could employ upwards of a couple of hundred depending on the size of the store. Not to mention, Wal-Mart is going to buy more from wholesale suppliers - thereby employing more people to manufacture the goods to meet the demand. Wal-Mart also has more bargaining power in purchasing to keep the prices down, which is good for the consumer. Wal-Mart is going to pay more in city, county, state, and federal taxes, too, than mom and pop. Roads get built off of tax dollars, as do water treatment facilities, libraries and schools. Those are good things. The mom and pops can survive in that atmosphere because people don't always want to park in the big parking lot, walk half a mile to the store and half a mile inside the store to get a gallon of milk when they can get it at the local convenience store for a little higher price. They can also survive with speciality items and services that the big retailers don't. Plus, not everybody is cut out to run their own business. I know I'd have starved a long time ago if someone wouldn't hire me to do whatever the hell it is I do.

Wal Mart convinces a city government to allow them to open a store. The choose a location and the city uses eminent domain to clear the land for rezoning and building. Often times, people are pushed out of their homes because of it. Granted, they get fair market value for their homes, but very rarely do they get and compensation for the hassle.

Wal Mart ships in it's good from overseas. Often, the products are made in sweatshops. Those that aren't are usually made by companies that have moved their manufacturing processes over seas from the US to take advantage of our governments tax breaks, cheaper labor and less stringent regulation regarding fair labor practices.

Wal Mart moved into a community, undercuts the local establishments including other mega corporations like Target, and force them out of business in the area. They pay their employees minimum wage or just above, offer very little in the way of health care and deny their employees the ability to work a full 40 hour week. In smaller communities, it's resulted in an increase in poverty and a larger dependence on state and federal social programs. And when the ability to turn a profit finally dries up, Wal Mart bails out and leaves a vacant building on an abandoned lot and a dead husk of a community. Lawsuits against Wal Mart and it's subsidiaries are so prevalent, Wal mart employees attorneys who work around the clock fending off lawsuits, watchdog groups and government investigations.

 

[eloisel]

First, no one convinces the government to let them open anything. Any legal business can buy property or open shop in rental space anywhere that is zoned for the type of legal business they are wishing to open. If they wish to put the business in a place that is not zoned for that type of business, they can request the Zoning Board of Adjustment change the zoning. The ZBA is a bipartisan local gov't function. Notice of the proposed zoning change has to be posted and a public hearing held where any citizen can appear and testify for or against the change. ZBA Board Members are appointed by elected local officials - i.e., the Mayor and City Council or the City Manager, sometimes a citizen committee, depending on how the local gov't is structured in its charter.

Second, eminent domain is also a bipartisan local gov't function that is also controlled by elected officials. A property can be condemned for blight and redeveloped for public purpose; however, there are legal findings that have to be made to be in compliance with the law in order to do so.

Third, economic development incentives also have to be posted, a public hearing held where the public can speak for or against, and the local governing body authorize by resolution. Again, the local governing body is a bipartisan elected group of people.

If bond money is required for the economic development project, it has to be voted on by the citizenry in a public election.

In order for a business to qualify for an economic development incentive, they have to meet certain criteria dependent upon the local governing bodies ED policies. There are a variety of incentives - Tax Abatements, Tax Increment Finance, Chapter 380, 334 Venue Projects, etc.

Tax Abatements - typically, the business promises to move their business to that city, increase the tax base by x amount of dollars, employ x amount of people, with average salaries at x amount, and in certain types of industries. The City, County, Hospital and College Districts (if there are such governing bodies in that area) will forgive a percentage of taxes owed by the business for x years - typically 5, sometimes up to 10, on real property and personal property. If the business at any time during the agreement does not meet its obligations, there is a clawback provision in the agreement that allows the taxing entities to get all the taxes that were abated from the beginning of the agreement. This is a good thing in many ways. Typically a piece of property is empty and not producing tax revenue. A business will come in and promise to add $25 million to the tax base, employ 500 people with the average salary $65K a year (which is good in my area), in a business on the favored business list - which also depends on the area the business is to be. The city might go as high as 80% abatement of taxes - which means the city gets 20% on a property they were previously getting nothing, plus the community has 500 more jobs that pay pretty well.

A chapter 380 is a fee waiver program. The city waives certain types of fees for the developer/business in exchange for the business adding tax value, creating jobs, etc.

A 334 venue project is another ball of wax entirely that because of the nature of my employ I do not feel at liberty to discuss right now. While I am not the decision maker on these projects, I am involved to a degree. I do not wish my personal opinions to be misconstrued as City policy.

Tax Increment Finance districts are pretty cool. The parties affected by the deal propose the district and tax themselves for the purpose of financing development of the area. The City and other taxing entities will also contribute to these districts as infrastructure like roads, stormwater drainage, ponds, bridges, etc. are built by the developers with reimbursement from the TIF fund.

I could go on about this forever and get into PIDs, MUDs, NEZs, etc. but the point is this - all of these projects are blessed by bipartisan local government officials. These local gov't officials live in your area and are voted into office by people living in your area. What they do has to be done in public, often include public hearings, and sometimes require direct voter approval. If the local gov't officials aren't doing what people in the area want, they can vote them out or push for a recall.

My experience with Wal-Mart from an ED perspective is slightly different than what you have relayed. They didn't ask for any incentives of any kind, and we didn't offer them any. We don't need that kind of business in this area but many people were glad to see them come in. They employed quite a number of people who are quite pleased with their jobs. The Wal-Mart near me also employed Wal-Mart employees that lost their jobs due to Hurricane Katrina and came here as refugees.

 

[eloisel]

Every company has majority share holders. And those are usually the VIPs and the board of directors. The average employee doesn't hold enough interest in the company to have much of a say in it. For most, it's an investment for retirement. The majority share holders are the ones that hire lobbyists to represent their interests. Which usually mean finding ways to to make laws, modify existing laws or change government to benefit themselves and their company. Regardless of the consequences.

I am a stockholder of companies for which I do not work. I invest and expect a return.

Again, the lawmakers are people that are voted into office. If they make you unhappy, vote them out. At the very least, write them and tell them you don't like what they are doing or tell them what you want to see happen.

 

[Sarek]

Jesus, you paint such a pretty picture of a checks and balances system that works wonders.

Tell me please, what utopia have you been living in the last 8 years?

 

[eloisel]

I don't know what to tell you, Sarek. You won't accept any reality that doesn't suit what you want to believe.

Say it again that the only reason Eggs isn't in prison for bitching about the President is because there isn't any room left in a jail or a military establishment to put him. You want to believe that.

I have written on this message board before about the number of contracts and grants that come across my desk doling federal money out to local charities for homeless shelters, medical care programs, home care for HIV patient programs, fixing cars for poor people, money to repair poor people's homes, job training programs, food programs, etc. I can tell you but you want to believe that Bush doesn't care about poor people instead so that won't fit in with your core belief system.

Poor little Hurricane Katrina victims got their rent paid for nearly 2 years. I know because I handled the contracts paying the landlords for more than 800 refugees. How long is the government supposed to support someone who has lived through a catastrophe? I've lived through a few - where's my freaking check?

Keep bellering your the whole world is screwed because of Bush bullshit. I really did think you were smarter than that.