TS...

[jack]

I've sussed that the real reasons for the punchcards were for census.

You realize they had a 75 to 90 percent kill rate on the deportations?

Lets not split hairs, the ovens were a failure. Every time I happen to mention how the punchcards show specifically where each person went and ended up, you subvert "ovens". They didn't use the ovens to kill anyone, any stories to that effect would be exaggeration. They killed them in the showers (the ones they didn't save to experiment on. 185 calories a day in the Ghetto once identified.

Good grief, you realize the riots in Amsterdam during the invasion by the locals over it were completely photographed and documented? What happened to the 104,000 Amsterdam jews that were deported? And the whole time, those meek kike sheep lined up for the slaughter, go figure. The punchcards show close to three million Jews were deported from all the conquered countries. Poland shows close to two million alone.

It's interesting what the bible says about the census. Pretty clear why after Nazi ideology. Explain the ghettos. Explain the 185 calories a day. Explain the most detailed census ever in Germany (750,000 census takers in May 1939) revealing over 3 million Jews in the 18 million residents.

Answers please? Why a census just identifying Jews? We know there were more than 6 million living in Europe, the Germs did the numbers themselves, and pretty accurately, according to IBM.

Did you know every camp had a punchcard department? Hollerith Abteilung it was called. Dachau and Storkow had 2 dozen machines, sorters, printers and tabulators each. IBM's equipment was always located within the camp itself, consigned to a special bureau called the Labor Assignment Office.

Different camps, different purposes. Buchenwald (in Germany) was a forced labor camp, that simply worked it's conscripts to death. no big deal. Some, like Westerbork (in Holland) were "transit camps". Then there were the extermination camps, like Treblinka (in Poland) that never had many inmates, because they were all killed within three or four weeks. Some camps like Auschwitz did all three.

You see why the punchcards were important, and why almost all the "camps" in the conquered countries were near railroads.

Guess what matches? The punchcard number and the tattoo on the arm of each Jew!!!!! You can still see what happened to each person with the cards, because each one traces back to a REAL FORMERLY ALIVE PERSON. It's sort of like a giant fucking cookie jar with each cookie very carefully marked so it appears in your shit after you've eaten it, so you can, you know...see what happened to it.

We found our uncle's card in the records, and it matches his story. A story he's told for many years.

Funny that.

 

[jack]

Because if the traditionally accepted side of the argument is right, 3 generations of innocent people have been punished for a crime they didn't commit. If the pariah side of the argument is right, 4 generations have been punished for a crime they didn't commit, and generations more have gotten away with a crime they are still committing.

With all due respect, why would you care about that either way? The Nazi's MEANT to pwn the world in WWII. Deny that shit all you want, that was the essence of it. Fascism wasn't fashion, Daniel.

They committed that crime. You can't uncommit it. You can't undo what you so carefully fucking documented in minute detail while you did it.

 

[The Question]

If the crime was committed, it wasn't committed by their children, grandchildren or great-grandchildren.

 

[jack]

What's your fucking argument then? If my Daddy tortured your Mommy in WWII by injecting cement into her vagina, you wouldn't be blaming my family to this day?

You wouldn't be trying to get the property he took away from you back? Your house? Your money?

Your teeth?

 

[The Question]

What's your fucking argument then? If my Daddy tortured your Mommy in WWII by injecting cement into her vagina, you wouldn't be blaming my family to this day?

Nope. I don't go in for that "sins of the fathers" shit. The party who committed the crime is the guilty party. In every other instance, the world has developed beyond blaming descendants for the crimes of their forebears. IOW, try the perpetrator, convict if found guilty, it ends there. Beyond that, stiffen your lip and grow the fuck up. Shit happens. To everyone.

You wouldn't be trying to get the property he took away from you back? Your house? Your money?

No, because in your scenario, no property was taken from me.

 

[Grandtheftcow]

I didn't mean why should anyone bother with the debate in general, but why should anyone bother to debate here, in this thread. I'm talking about the comments like "Take your antisemitism and peddle it elsewhere" when no antisemitism was displayed. One side debates, the other side launches ad hominem attacks.. you're a troll, you're antisemitic.. etc.

I think you've been hiding out in that little Minefield safe house to much lately and can't even pick up on blatant over the top trolling.

Jew hater.

If you're gonna call someone out at least do some work, make it interesting, back your shit up.

Against what? Crackpot ramblings about a vast Jewish conspiracy? Creationist style nitpickery based on false information? Or Laker_Girl's hilarious counter claim that six million sounds like a big number so she's not sure about it?

Really I don't have the time to filter through all those retarded wannabe nazi sites in order to find legitimate sources on a subject filled with more bullshit than the 9/11 conspiracy.

 

[The Question]

^^Stylishly done, but the same empty name-calling we see all the time.

 

[Cassie]

Cow, I'm not referring to your and Menty's blatant over the top trolling. That was more than obvious. It's funny you accuse me of not being able to pick up on trolling, then you totally missed the boat on L_G's.

If Friday wasn't prepared to argue with the crackpots then why call them out in the first place? That's my question. Did she just want TQ to repost all the same things that have been posted here repeatedly regarding the Holocaust? I'm not trying to pick a fight with her, I'm just curious. After reading this thread, I have no idea really what her opinion is on the numbers or why she believes whatever it is she believes.

Personally I don't give a shit one way or the other. I don't know what difference it would make if 6 million were killed or 2. There's nothing that can be done about it now. What concerns me is that there are laws against holocaust denial in some countries. To question the Holocaust is seen as racist slander and condoning war crimes - that's bullshit. Google Holocaust denial law and look at the news results.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/08/wlepen108.xml

http://www.ejpress.org/article/23776

The court however ruled that imprisonment is a constitutional punishment for any individual convicted of justifying the Holocaust or any other genocide.

WTF?

 

[Shitty Dual]

 

[missmanners]

A year or so ago I was walking around some festival and a Jewish Youth Group had set up a large display asking for donations of pennies. They wanted to collect 12 million pennies "One to represent each Jew exterminated in the camps"... the first words out of my mouth were "huh, I thought it was 6 million" and the name calling began. I was everything from a denier to a Nazi, blah blah blah. By the way this was a college group ON a college Campus. Now I could make all kinds of tacky jokes about Jews and money and to be honest, I wondered later if it was some sort of sociology experiment, but it made me mad.

I dont care if it was 300,000 or 30,000,000... it was an ugly time in history. But to not be allowed to question that history as it's been written it is scary. The fact is not every Jew who died in Europe in that time frame did so in a camp and not every person in the camps was a Jew. (just like 3000 Americans were not killed in the WTC on 9/11)
Not every Jew unaccounted for was dead and the camp liberators were responsible for a HUGE amount of deaths because they gave things to chocolate bars to starving people.

20,000,000 or more Russians died, where is the outrage over that?

:meh:
mm

 

[Shitty Dual]

^ Pennies? Sounds like a gag or, like you said, an experiment. That's like the Black Panthers asking for watermelon seeds. When I was growing up the delinquents in our neighborhood would try to pick fights with Jewish kids by throwing pennies at them (then daring them to pick them up).

 

[jack]

She's full of shit, as usual. No "college campus" would allow a public display of that nature.

 

[Cacophony]

"How long does it take to cremate a body?

Cremating at the optimum temperature (1600 - 1800 degrees), the average weighted remains takes 2 to 2 1/2 hours."

That's at the optimum temperature, presumably for an individual body. Now this is just a guess, but my guess is that multiple bodies in the same chamber would increase the time requirement for that... *shudder* batch. So how did these miracle ovens exceed the optimum performance of modern equipment under far from optimal conditions, Jack?

From my understanding from all that I've read over the years, the actual burning of prisoners was quite rare. Generally, the gas chambers were just that - chambers in which poisonous gas was released in order to kill those inside. Wiki says that the Nazis commonly used pellets of Zyklon-B (a cyanide-based insecticide that is highly toxic) to exterminate those in the gas chambers, and while Wiki isn't always the most reliable source, I've read before in various sources about the use of Zyklon-B that I don't have readily available to me now.

Zyklon-B effectively exterminated those contained inside the chambers within 20 minutes, and then it took approximately 4 hours to clear the chambers out (which was done by other prisoners). The bodies were then disposed of. Early on, they were buried and covered in lye, while later on in the war, the Nazis began burning the bodies in huge piles - note that they were already dead, and this was being done a ways away from the gas chambers and not for the purpose of killing people, though if anyone was lucky enough to escape death in the chambers, I'm sure they met it on the pyres.

Let's assume that you're right and that in one gas chamber, 550 people can be held (though sources say that it's approximately 800 in the smaller chambers to 1200 in the larger). Running 16 hours a day, that's 550 people dead every 4 hours and 20 minutes, or 4.3 hours. This allowed for approximately 3 full cycles of killing the inmates and then emptying the chambers. Which equates to around 1650 people in one 16 hour period. There are 365 days in a year, but let's assume that there may have been some problems and the gas chamber was only running for 350 of them (maintenance, what have you). That would mean that 577,500 people would be killed in one year's time. Auschwitz's death camp operation was running from October of 1941 to January of 1945. Let's discount the remaining months of 1941 and January of 1945 and say that the camp was in full swing for 3 years (1942, 1943, and 1944). That would be 1,732,500 people killed in that three year span. In one gas chamber.

Granted, that number is high, but it's only meant to illustrate what could have happened had the gas chambers been running at an optimal level all the time.

Something that I haven't really seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that thousands of people died while in the Concentration camps and ghettos from "natural" causes like starvation, exhaustion, and disease. Or the "death marches" some of the inmates were forced to go on near the end of the war. Or the firing squads in the ghettos that would kill anyone not fit for work.

I'm not sure on this fact, so if anyone knows any different, I'd appreciate it if they let me know. Does the estimated 6 million deaths include the non-Jews that were killed too? I know that Gypsies were also targeted, and really, anyone who didn't sympathize with the Nazi cause could have been killed, including those who hid Jews or who were active in the underground. I'm also quite sure that there were a number of Poles killed, but then again, I could be wrong.

But honestly, the number doesn't matter.

 

[The Question]

I've gone over the many errors in that post so many times I'm not even going to bother with them again. Do a search and read all I've already said.

 

[jack]

4326 per day on the average in all 11 chambers

 

[The Question]

What are the dimensions of the 'average chamber'?

 

[jack]

There was no average chamber size. The most efficient didn't use Zyklon at all, because that was as inefficient as burning them after to dispose of the bodies. You revisionists ignore the internal combustion engines that delived carbon monoxide to these rooms effortlessly.

But then, that might make some sense. The two Auschwitz rooms could kill about 1100 people a day (about125 in each room, and it took three hours from start to finish to load them in and cart them out)

They only used the crematoria for disposal until the stench of the stacked up bodies waiting to be burned started to give them away.

Mass graves after that.

 

[jack]

But the average was about 1100 kills a shift (about a hundred in each room) 4 times a day.

 

[The Question]

There was no average chamber size.

Then how do you arrive at statements like, "The average chamber could..."?

The most efficient didn't use Zyklon at all, because that was as inefficient as burning them after to dispose of the bodies. You revisionists ignore the internal combustion engines that delived carbon monoxide to these rooms effortlessly.

No, that isn't ignored at all; in fact, it's a point of ridicule. What you fail to mention is that the "internal combustion engine" invariably pointed at is the diesel engine, which doesn't produce carbon monoxide in sufficient concentration to be lethal.

But then, that might make some sense. The two Auschwitz rooms could kill about 1100 people a day (about125 in each room, and it took three hours from start to finish to load them in and cart them out)

Great, give me the physical dimensions of those two rooms.

They only used the crematoria for disposal until the stench of the stacked up bodies waiting to be burned started to give them away.

Mass graves after that.

Where? Even three quarters of six million people in mass graves should add up to many, many times more than what's ever been found in or near the camps.

 

[The Question]

But the average was about 1100 kills a shift (about a hundred in each room) 4 times a day.

Here's the bottom line: if you make a claim that's based on numbers you can't produce, I won't accept your claim.