Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
No. The stuntwoman will do the running.
Troll Kingdom
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The Dark Knight Rises. Like bread.
- Thread starter The Tomtrek
- Start date
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Yeah I still don't mind. It's not like she's bending over and spanking her own ass or something. It's a comic book super hero movie and I don't know what else they would have done for a promo pic.
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
How about having her face the camera? You know, like how Bane and Batman get to because the media doesn't want to objectify them?
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
They're all standing in the type of poses you'd see from the characters in the comics the movie is based on, I'd say.
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
Yes because it's the exact same problem! In the comics Catwoman is still mostly drawn with an amazing amount of male galze - which is bad!
Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
It's very difficult to completely remove all traces of comic book camp from the Batman myth for the screen, entirely due to his rogue's gallery of villains. Nolan did a great job of de-campifying the Joker, but the horrific nature of that character makes it easier to render in a non-cute way. But the rest of the arch-villains aren't as three-dimensional as Joker, who really is Batman's alter-ego, or his unchecked id if you will. All the others come with their own novelty baggage.
You can make Batman as snarly and serious as you please, but when he's battling a penguin, a cat and a giggling jazz dancer in a green unitard, it's hard not to go for the camp.
You can make Batman as snarly and serious as you please, but when he's battling a penguin, a cat and a giggling jazz dancer in a green unitard, it's hard not to go for the camp.
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
This is camp:
This is male gaze:
Two very different things: you can be camp without being all sexist about it.
This is male gaze:
Two very different things: you can be camp without being all sexist about it.
Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
OKAY HELEN GIRLY BROWN. (I love you Tomtrek!)
Anyway, whatever happened to women choosing to look that way as a form of empowerment? That's part of the Catwoman mystique as well, even if it wasn't necessarily done on purpose by her creators over the years, lol. The costume says "I want you to look, and be consumed with desire, but if you try to overtake me, you die!" THAT BITCH!
Anyway, whatever happened to women choosing to look that way as a form of empowerment? That's part of the Catwoman mystique as well, even if it wasn't necessarily done on purpose by her creators over the years, lol. The costume says "I want you to look, and be consumed with desire, but if you try to overtake me, you die!" THAT BITCH!
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Yes everyone rightly complained about the new Starfire. It doesn't mean every comic's drawn like that. It's an extreme that has little relation with Christopher Nolan's Batman universe. Obviously super hero comics are mostly drawn by men and there is sexism in there, but I do think (reading a lot of super hero comics as I do) that it's getting better in general.
And the male character's are drawn with unrealistically huge muscles and the movie versions of them have latex molded around their taught, muscular male buttocks...ahem.
And the male character's are drawn with unrealistically huge muscles and the movie versions of them have latex molded around their taught, muscular male buttocks...ahem.
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
It's possible for that to be done right. Hell, The Dark Knight Rises may be written well enough for that to happen.
But most of the time the "woman dresses sexy to be EMPOWERED and to FIGHT MEN" is often an excuse by the (male) writer to dress up the character in skimpy costumes and claim it's "for women". Basically this:
This is true, but there's a key difference. The muscley male characters are drawn to be the ideal for the (male) reader - they're supposed to aspire to be that character. They're the subjects. The women are drawn to be ojects of lust for the (male) reader - they're supposed to be pretty things to look at and not someone to identify with. They're objects.
Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
Isn't that objectification subjective to the reader, though?
I look at the muscly men with their 60" chests and 14" waists in speedos and tights, and I objectify them. OH HO!
I look at the muscly men with their 60" chests and 14" waists in speedos and tights, and I objectify them. OH HO!
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
Yes and no. While it's true that the muscular men can be objectified, that's certainly not the reason why they're there.
They're explicitly written and drawn to be identification figures for the male audience, while a lot of female characters are written to be ojectification figures for the male audience.
The artist isn't going "I'm going to make Captain America super strong and muscular in order to try and appeal to our straight female/gay male audience", he's going "I'm going to make Captain America super strong and muscular because I wish I could be like that."
Yes there are exceptions to this. Of course there are.
They're explicitly written and drawn to be identification figures for the male audience, while a lot of female characters are written to be ojectification figures for the male audience.
The artist isn't going "I'm going to make Captain America super strong and muscular in order to try and appeal to our straight female/gay male audience", he's going "I'm going to make Captain America super strong and muscular because I wish I could be like that."
Yes there are exceptions to this. Of course there are.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Yeah I don't actually disagree with any of that, I just didn't think that Catwoman pic was a particularly egregious example of sexism and I don't think the comic writers I enjoy (mostly Marvel super hero stuff) are partcularly sexist. If it was the nineties I'd probably be disgusted a lot more often (because everything would be drawn by Rob Liefeld.)
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
Well that's just a difference of opinion, I guess. I'm not as up on the current state as comics as you so I'll defer to your judgement on that, although I could write another small essay on what DC has done to Harley Quinn...
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Well as I don't read DC (actually I've been reading Wonder Woman since the relaunch and it's actually pretty good) I'll just choose to believe that they're much worse than Marvel and blame them for everything!
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Not really helping!
whisky
Boobie inspector
How about having her face the camera? You know, like how Bane and Batman get to because the media doesn't want to objectify them?
What, so no-one else sees Bane holding his massive vieny arm with fist clenched in front of his crotch as a massive phallus aimed directly at the viewer?
Still at least things weren't so sexualised in the 60s right?
Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
A non-sexualized Catwoman would be like a non-black Shaft. What would be the point?
She's an interesting Batman villain because they have the hots for each other while they are fighting each other. Otherwise we might as well have Catwoman played by Ellen Degeneres.
She's an interesting Batman villain because they have the hots for each other while they are fighting each other. Otherwise we might as well have Catwoman played by Ellen Degeneres.
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
I'm not saying don't make her a sexual character. I'm saying don't make her an object. Give her agency, an actual character, reasons to be sexualised beyond "because it's hot".
It's possible to do that, with good writing.
It's possible to do that, with good writing.