The Question
Eternal
Jack said:
The Saint said:
Jack said:
Link, please.
Troll Kingdom
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Concentration Camp Photos :::WARNING! GRAPHIC IMAGES!:::
- Thread starter jack
- Start date
Link, please.
The Auschwitz Death Pool
Few people are aware of the other methods Nazis used to implement their brutal final solution.
The Auschwitz death pool was one such method. Between the years of 1940 and 1941, when the death machine was gaining momentum, the Nazis chose to employ a more efficient method for disposing of "undesirables."
The pool devoured trillions of Jews. The world did nothing. Send me money.
Few people are aware of the other methods Nazis used to implement their brutal final solution.
The Auschwitz death pool was one such method. Between the years of 1940 and 1941, when the death machine was gaining momentum, the Nazis chose to employ a more efficient method for disposing of "undesirables."
The pool devoured trillions of Jews. The world did nothing. Send me money.
You entered this thread withDonovan said:
One of the aspects of the Holocaust question I find distressing is the willingness to quibble over numbers which were, at the very slightest, horrible acts of atrocity by the third Reich and its allies. Some say millions, some say only hundreds of thousands, some say extermination, some say only accidental death due to forced labor, death marches, dysentery, starvation, and disease outbreaks because the weak fools couldn't stand the deplorable living conditions.
Some of them say a lot of things. You're the only one who's said it here.
It is your hyperbole.
You are trying to apply it to a discussion about revisionism. I say that towards the end of the war, supply lines were crumbling and the people in the camps succumbed to disease or starvation. There is no special motivation or notions of natural selection behind it.
You don't argue with it, but you bring it up to portray the Nazis in as negative a light as possible. This shouldn't be necessary, if the facts speak for themselves.
Utter rubbish. Historical revisionism goes on all the time, in an effort to record history in a light more unbiased than the one written by the victors. The only reason there is so much hoopla and talk of monsters is because the Holocaust is a sacred cow.
No one is downplaying atrocities, because they are unconvinced any atrocities occurred.
Yup.
Why should I put up any effort? I'm not interested in a pissing contest with you. I read everything you wrote.
jack
The Legendary Troll King
Can you explain the 3,000,000 Polish Jews the census shows for 1939? During the summer of 1939, the Office for Military Economic Planning with jurisdiction over the Hollerith usage had conducted it's own study of ethnic minorities in Poland. By Nov 2 1939 Arlt, the Nazi stat wizard who had already surveyed Leipzig Jews and their city by city ancestral roots in Poland, had been appointed head of the Population and Welfare Administration of the "General Government", which was the new Reich name for occupied Poland. The three million Leipzig Jews are mentioned several times in Arlt's publication "Political Information Service of the General Government" based in Krakow. It featured data like Jewish population per square meter with sliding projections of decrease resulting from imposed conditions such as forced labor and starvation. Arlt ruled out permanent emigration, since the Jews would still be alive. Instead as one article asserts "We can count on the mortality of some subjugated groups. These include babies and those over 65 as well as those who are basically weak and ill in all other age groups"
Only eliminating 1.5 million jews would reduce Jewish population density to 110 persons per square kilometer.. This is an excerpt from the Express letter Heydrich to Einsatzgruppen, Sept 21st 1939 Implementation Order #1 for the Regulation of Oct 26th 1939 for the Introduction of Forced Labor for the Jewish Population in the Government General.
That's a 1939 detailed census in one part of Poland, gentlemen. By their own stat wizard, in their own hand. You are trying to deny what they were adamant about. The numbers exist, in excruciating detail. They could kill 4000 people a day in each camp at the height of their efficiency.
500,000? LOL Yeah, by 1939 they had killed half a million. I'll go along with that.
Only eliminating 1.5 million jews would reduce Jewish population density to 110 persons per square kilometer.. This is an excerpt from the Express letter Heydrich to Einsatzgruppen, Sept 21st 1939 Implementation Order #1 for the Regulation of Oct 26th 1939 for the Introduction of Forced Labor for the Jewish Population in the Government General.
That's a 1939 detailed census in one part of Poland, gentlemen. By their own stat wizard, in their own hand. You are trying to deny what they were adamant about. The numbers exist, in excruciating detail. They could kill 4000 people a day in each camp at the height of their efficiency.
500,000? LOL Yeah, by 1939 they had killed half a million. I'll go along with that.
The Question
Eternal
jack said:
Is this the same Polish mathematics by which the following equation is possible?
~4,000,000 + ~2,000,000 = ~6,000,000 (per Auschwitz Memorial plaques pre-1995)
/
~1,500,000 + ~2,000,000... still = ~6,000,000 (per Auschwitz Memorial plaques 1995-present)
jack
The Legendary Troll King
Richard Kohrerr and his assistant Plate printed a statistical population on European Jewry on January 20th 1942. The printed protocol's centerpiece was a statistical report on the mission ahead.
Germany: 131,800
Ostamark Region: 43,700
Eastern Territories: 420,000
Occupied Poland: 2,284,000
Bialystok: 400,000
Bohemia and Moravia: 74,200
LithuaniaL 34,000
Belgium: 43,000
Denmark: 5,600
Occupied France: 165,000
Unoccupied France: 700,000
Greece: 69,800
Netherlands: 160,800
Norway: 1,300
The Protocol's published grand total of Jews as of January 20th 1942 was 11 million including the British Isles and Russia. That's how many THEY thought they had to kill
Germany: 131,800
Ostamark Region: 43,700
Eastern Territories: 420,000
Occupied Poland: 2,284,000
Bialystok: 400,000
Bohemia and Moravia: 74,200
LithuaniaL 34,000
Belgium: 43,000
Denmark: 5,600
Occupied France: 165,000
Unoccupied France: 700,000
Greece: 69,800
Netherlands: 160,800
Norway: 1,300
The Protocol's published grand total of Jews as of January 20th 1942 was 11 million including the British Isles and Russia. That's how many THEY thought they had to kill
Starship Coyote
Original Gangster!
I'm going to bring up some points here, just to stir the pot:
On that list above, I can guessing that "eastern territories" refers to occupied regions of the USSR.
Now, there's a problem, and the problem is: who's a Jew?
The Nuremberg Blood Laws were written in 1935 in order to determine who's a Jew and who's not. Basically, a person with three or four Jewist grandparents (based on the religioius observances of the grandparent in question) was a Jew. A person with one or two Jewish grandparents was not a Jew but a person of "mixed blood," and this is why you had officers of Jewish descent serving in the military. I'm not 100% sure on this, and will have to find the right book somewhere in this house to be sure, but IIRC there were also prohibitions against those of mixed blood marrying those also of mixed blood... which would make sense because you're increasing the Jewish blood through your children if you did so, whereas someone of mixed blood marrying someone of pure German blood would decrease the Jewish blood through the children. Again, I'm not 100% on that, but I believe I'm correct.
Where am I going with this? The point is: of the nations listed, most had legal definitions of what a Jew was, and often varied. For example, generally who do Jews consider to be a Jew? Someone with a Jewish mother is normally the answer. So if you contrast that to the Nazi definition, someone could have Jewish blood on the mother's side and be considered Semitic by the Jewish community, but miss the mark according to the Nuremburg Laws if the father were white.
And the definitions did change from country to country. So, if the Nazis were using pre-war censuses (censii?), then those censuses were based upon that nation's definitions and not necessarily the Nuremberg definitions.
What does that mean? First, it renders the census numbers Jack gives above absolutely meaningless. Jewish blood, if the NL were followed, had to be determined once the area in question was subjugated and the Abwehr rolled in to the courthouses to look at the geneologies. I'm not entirely sure what they did, and would make a fascinating research project.
So, and this is purely hypothetical: if, for example, Belgium listed 43,000 Jews and the Nazis determined only 35,000 (again, for example) then that's 8,000 people in legal limbo. But those 8K run for it, or otherwise fall off the map in fear of being arrested, then for all intents that's 8K considered to be victims of the Final Solution even though they were not killed.
Continued next post.
On that list above, I can guessing that "eastern territories" refers to occupied regions of the USSR.
Now, there's a problem, and the problem is: who's a Jew?
The Nuremberg Blood Laws were written in 1935 in order to determine who's a Jew and who's not. Basically, a person with three or four Jewist grandparents (based on the religioius observances of the grandparent in question) was a Jew. A person with one or two Jewish grandparents was not a Jew but a person of "mixed blood," and this is why you had officers of Jewish descent serving in the military. I'm not 100% sure on this, and will have to find the right book somewhere in this house to be sure, but IIRC there were also prohibitions against those of mixed blood marrying those also of mixed blood... which would make sense because you're increasing the Jewish blood through your children if you did so, whereas someone of mixed blood marrying someone of pure German blood would decrease the Jewish blood through the children. Again, I'm not 100% on that, but I believe I'm correct.
Where am I going with this? The point is: of the nations listed, most had legal definitions of what a Jew was, and often varied. For example, generally who do Jews consider to be a Jew? Someone with a Jewish mother is normally the answer. So if you contrast that to the Nazi definition, someone could have Jewish blood on the mother's side and be considered Semitic by the Jewish community, but miss the mark according to the Nuremburg Laws if the father were white.
And the definitions did change from country to country. So, if the Nazis were using pre-war censuses (censii?), then those censuses were based upon that nation's definitions and not necessarily the Nuremberg definitions.
What does that mean? First, it renders the census numbers Jack gives above absolutely meaningless. Jewish blood, if the NL were followed, had to be determined once the area in question was subjugated and the Abwehr rolled in to the courthouses to look at the geneologies. I'm not entirely sure what they did, and would make a fascinating research project.
So, and this is purely hypothetical: if, for example, Belgium listed 43,000 Jews and the Nazis determined only 35,000 (again, for example) then that's 8,000 people in legal limbo. But those 8K run for it, or otherwise fall off the map in fear of being arrested, then for all intents that's 8K considered to be victims of the Final Solution even though they were not killed.
Continued next post.
Starship Coyote
Original Gangster!
Continued...
As to Jack's claim:
This is laughable. Assuming we don't differentiate between those killed and those who died through other causes such as disease and starvation, that number is simply an absolute guess on someone's part and probably based on number fiddling than on anything substantial. For example, Auschwitz (rebuilt by the Polish government), displayed a plaque for decades declaring 4 million dead there... a proposterous number. A few years ago, the number was changed to 2.5 million. That's a huge difference... 1.5 million, and I can't find an explanation for why the number dropped so dramatically. I suspect closer examination of the records called for it.
I've also noticed that the magic "5.5 million" hasn't decreased in retrospect.
Another sticking point that disrupts accurate representation of "how many died"... varying death counts at different extermination facilities. For example, Majdenek's body count is Majdanek: 78,000–235,000 and Jasenovac is 500,000–840,000. Those are huge spans of numbers, the first one especially.
So, don't give me this crap about capacities at the height of operations... it's sheer guesswork.
As to Jack's claim:
This is laughable. Assuming we don't differentiate between those killed and those who died through other causes such as disease and starvation, that number is simply an absolute guess on someone's part and probably based on number fiddling than on anything substantial. For example, Auschwitz (rebuilt by the Polish government), displayed a plaque for decades declaring 4 million dead there... a proposterous number. A few years ago, the number was changed to 2.5 million. That's a huge difference... 1.5 million, and I can't find an explanation for why the number dropped so dramatically. I suspect closer examination of the records called for it.
I've also noticed that the magic "5.5 million" hasn't decreased in retrospect.
Another sticking point that disrupts accurate representation of "how many died"... varying death counts at different extermination facilities. For example, Majdenek's body count is Majdanek: 78,000–235,000 and Jasenovac is 500,000–840,000. Those are huge spans of numbers, the first one especially.
So, don't give me this crap about capacities at the height of operations... it's sheer guesswork.
The Question
Eternal
jack said:
Total from those figures: 4,533,200.
That leaves, what? 6,466,800? What's the split on that between the USSR and the UK? And where can I read those numbers other than, A: Your postings here, or B: a Holocaust "history" website?
Starship Coyote
Original Gangster!
jack said:
Who says I follow the Nuremberg Laws? You're a rat-faced Jew.
The Question
Eternal
Come to think of it, just over 6 million not covered by the Kohrerr-Plate report, yet another instance of that magical, talisman-like number which is apparently utterly unalterable by reduction of any of its subtotals.
And to answer one of Donovan's more hilarious earlier statements, paraphrasing: "If it could be conclusively proven that only 500k died..." I believe it can be, which is why anyone who tries is blacklisted or otherwise removed from any station from which they could dispense any such finding and be regarded with the seriousness they deserve. Anyone who could prove it is rendered unable to do so or slandered/libeled to the point where no one will take them seriously if they do prove it.
And to answer one of Donovan's more hilarious earlier statements, paraphrasing: "If it could be conclusively proven that only 500k died..." I believe it can be, which is why anyone who tries is blacklisted or otherwise removed from any station from which they could dispense any such finding and be regarded with the seriousness they deserve. Anyone who could prove it is rendered unable to do so or slandered/libeled to the point where no one will take them seriously if they do prove it.