SaintLucifer
beer, I want beer
Monolith said:
One
uhhhhhhhh.... wait! I'll get it!
One
... fuck, I could have sworn I knew!!
Troll Kingdom
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Objectification - A discussion
- Thread starter Sadistic Bastard
- Start date
One
uhhhhhhhh.... wait! I'll get it!
One
... fuck, I could have sworn I knew!!
SaintLucifer
beer, I want beer
Monolith said:You tire me Luci.
You ignorance radiates.
Tata for now
Jeez. It is simple. Just place me on IGNORE. Christ. This simple tool escapes you?
SaintLucifer
beer, I want beer
Monolith said:Kisses for you Luci
Click on my name and add me to your IGNORE list honey. I am asking you nicely here.
Sadistic Bastard
No Mercy
Long time members will probably remember our own "Princess Whoop Ass", who was a stripper for some time (I believe her husband was a bouncer at one of the clubs she danced at). Once she had achieved her goals, she stopped dancing at clubs.
With ANY large group, you will have people who adapt well to a situation, and those who do not. Some will take stripping as a chapter in their lives and then leave it behind, some will use it to fiance other issues in their lives, or escapes such as drugs or other diversions. Working as an exotic dancer isn't usually the base cause for such things, but I believe it can enable them further...
Thoughts?
(just because I'd rather not let this discussion die or be spammed to death)
-SB
With ANY large group, you will have people who adapt well to a situation, and those who do not. Some will take stripping as a chapter in their lives and then leave it behind, some will use it to fiance other issues in their lives, or escapes such as drugs or other diversions. Working as an exotic dancer isn't usually the base cause for such things, but I believe it can enable them further...
Thoughts?
(just because I'd rather not let this discussion die or be spammed to death)
-SB
Molly
New member
I get asked by customers all the time why I'm dancing. Or what made me start. I'm tempted to tell them crack and my three illegitimate children, but deadpan responses are just too easily believed.
The reason? Last summer, I just turned 20, entering 3rd year university, couldn't find a job that would accomodate school hours for the life of me. I spent my first two years struggling to work fulltime and go to school fulltime. I just got sick of it. Tried to think outside the box. Came up with dancing, shot it down (I'm a suburban girl, I don't do drugs, I'm on the dean's list...nice girls don't do that!).
But the idea wouldn't go away..I thought, hell, I'll try it. Well, I make more money than my dad does, I work whenever I want, I can come in late, skip shifts, not get reprimanded...work for myself basically (can be lazy at work if I'm tired, or hustle my ass of selling dances).
The whole 'objectification' thing- what does that even mean? As far as I can tell, all 'jobs' that are low-skill are going to exploit the worker. We know that, and we do it anyway, for the pay cheque. Why should I be in debt if I don't have to? And what is so special about sexuality? Nudity, specifically? We don't sell sex, we sell the idea of sex. We sell sexual tease. And no, I don't have a problem with it. It's not always fun, it doesn't always give me warm fuzzies. But I've had a lot of shitty jobs I've hated a lot worse. And this one pays through the nose. I can easily pay off a mortgage in three years. I can pay for law school on top of that.
Does it give me problems with my personal relationships? No, frankly. I associate with open minded people, and I always have. I've also done acting in the past- to me, dancing is half sales, half acting.
It just seems to me that the whole 'well, you're objectifying yourself, and you're shaming yourself as a woman' presupposes the notion that sex is somehow wrong or shameful in itself. I'm not having sex or engaging in sexual activity for money and that I think would create psychological problems for me, though I think if done safely, the women who do choose to do that- it's their choice.
The reason? Last summer, I just turned 20, entering 3rd year university, couldn't find a job that would accomodate school hours for the life of me. I spent my first two years struggling to work fulltime and go to school fulltime. I just got sick of it. Tried to think outside the box. Came up with dancing, shot it down (I'm a suburban girl, I don't do drugs, I'm on the dean's list...nice girls don't do that!).
But the idea wouldn't go away..I thought, hell, I'll try it. Well, I make more money than my dad does, I work whenever I want, I can come in late, skip shifts, not get reprimanded...work for myself basically (can be lazy at work if I'm tired, or hustle my ass of selling dances).
The whole 'objectification' thing- what does that even mean? As far as I can tell, all 'jobs' that are low-skill are going to exploit the worker. We know that, and we do it anyway, for the pay cheque. Why should I be in debt if I don't have to? And what is so special about sexuality? Nudity, specifically? We don't sell sex, we sell the idea of sex. We sell sexual tease. And no, I don't have a problem with it. It's not always fun, it doesn't always give me warm fuzzies. But I've had a lot of shitty jobs I've hated a lot worse. And this one pays through the nose. I can easily pay off a mortgage in three years. I can pay for law school on top of that.
Does it give me problems with my personal relationships? No, frankly. I associate with open minded people, and I always have. I've also done acting in the past- to me, dancing is half sales, half acting.
It just seems to me that the whole 'well, you're objectifying yourself, and you're shaming yourself as a woman' presupposes the notion that sex is somehow wrong or shameful in itself. I'm not having sex or engaging in sexual activity for money and that I think would create psychological problems for me, though I think if done safely, the women who do choose to do that- it's their choice.
Caitriona
Something Wicked
I actually have some thoughts, but I'm not sure they are relevant. I'm not a dancer, but I think I can see the inherent problems with the industry.
I think we can see just form the reaction of some of the men here on TK, that this touches off some deep seeded moral issue for some men. They cry and rail against the immorality of such women, yet never extend that moral judgment to the men who seek out the 'dance'. If it were actually wrong it would be wrong both to dance and watch. And please don't tell me about the "temptation of women". Men are capable of exerting self-control over their desires, they just choose not to and blame women for their own moral failures.
I don't think it is a moral issue, it's a social and sexual circumstance and should be looked at in social/sexual terms, not moral ones. Any morality here is the same morality we'd expect in any other situation. Honesty etc.. dancing naked or provocatively for an audience is not inherently immoral.
I think that men objectify the women so they can 'lust after them' and not have to be responsible for what they think and do. After all, if a stripper is objectified a man does not have to view her as a human being with feelings, etc. He doe snot have to be responsible for how he treats another human being. If he objectifies her he can keep her in whatever fantasy he has going on in his head as she dances. Objectification is an act of irresponsibility in this instance. [as opposed to purposeful objectification as in D/s to be used as a tool to some end.]
Truth is, because he is unable to have his lust and take responsibility for it, he has to objectify her. Or the fantasy is spoiled. I find that to be a problem with men, not some flaw in women who dance for men.
I also find the sexual expression of dancers to be bold and an expression of something that is inherently female. We dance. We look good when we dance. Be it ballet, swing, on a pole, with clothes, without clothes.. we look good dancing.
The shame is that the exotic dancers don't have the protection of the stage to protect them from the audience. Ballet dancers are objectified to the dance too, but they are protected from the audience. Exotic dancers aren't. That I find to be very interesting. It's a performance, and the performance should be insulated so the dancers are protected emotionally. Unfortunately the dancers have to get off the stage and make contact with the audience. They shouldn't have to, they should be protected from the audience, and paid the money they deserve, just for the dance alone.
Yes, I am an idealist. So, sue me.
But I thought this was important to point out because I think it is the lack of protection that causes the objectification to do real harm to the psyche of the dancer. A lot of professions objectify the performer, but Exotic dancing is one of the few where the performance is taking place on the lap of an audience member. That breaks down that protection between performance and audience.
It's further complicated because sex is involved.
Just my observation.. I could be way off base.
I think we can see just form the reaction of some of the men here on TK, that this touches off some deep seeded moral issue for some men. They cry and rail against the immorality of such women, yet never extend that moral judgment to the men who seek out the 'dance'. If it were actually wrong it would be wrong both to dance and watch. And please don't tell me about the "temptation of women". Men are capable of exerting self-control over their desires, they just choose not to and blame women for their own moral failures.
I don't think it is a moral issue, it's a social and sexual circumstance and should be looked at in social/sexual terms, not moral ones. Any morality here is the same morality we'd expect in any other situation. Honesty etc.. dancing naked or provocatively for an audience is not inherently immoral.
I think that men objectify the women so they can 'lust after them' and not have to be responsible for what they think and do. After all, if a stripper is objectified a man does not have to view her as a human being with feelings, etc. He doe snot have to be responsible for how he treats another human being. If he objectifies her he can keep her in whatever fantasy he has going on in his head as she dances. Objectification is an act of irresponsibility in this instance. [as opposed to purposeful objectification as in D/s to be used as a tool to some end.]
Truth is, because he is unable to have his lust and take responsibility for it, he has to objectify her. Or the fantasy is spoiled. I find that to be a problem with men, not some flaw in women who dance for men.
I also find the sexual expression of dancers to be bold and an expression of something that is inherently female. We dance. We look good when we dance. Be it ballet, swing, on a pole, with clothes, without clothes.. we look good dancing.
The shame is that the exotic dancers don't have the protection of the stage to protect them from the audience. Ballet dancers are objectified to the dance too, but they are protected from the audience. Exotic dancers aren't. That I find to be very interesting. It's a performance, and the performance should be insulated so the dancers are protected emotionally. Unfortunately the dancers have to get off the stage and make contact with the audience. They shouldn't have to, they should be protected from the audience, and paid the money they deserve, just for the dance alone.
Yes, I am an idealist. So, sue me.
But I thought this was important to point out because I think it is the lack of protection that causes the objectification to do real harm to the psyche of the dancer. A lot of professions objectify the performer, but Exotic dancing is one of the few where the performance is taking place on the lap of an audience member. That breaks down that protection between performance and audience.
It's further complicated because sex is involved.
Just my observation.. I could be way off base.
Kerb Crawler
Closed Fist of the Badlands
^Bravo, Cait.
joe_eschaton
New member
There is only one issue, and it is a moral one. All others are byproducts of this.
The basis of morality (that is, of its explanation NOT its justification) is compassion. And if you can manage to feel sorry for whores, or whores in waiting, you are ipso facto a better woman than me...
The basis of morality (that is, of its explanation NOT its justification) is compassion. And if you can manage to feel sorry for whores, or whores in waiting, you are ipso facto a better woman than me...
Molly
New member
I see where you're coming from Cait, but I have to disagree a little based on my experience 'interacting with the audience'. Basically, how my customers treat me and act towards me isn't as straightforward as it seems. Yes, they come to see us naked. But when I sit down and introduce myself, we talk like people first and foremost. Of course there is a sexual dynamic, but we always converse a little first. They ask me about school, or we talk about general things, like people do...And no, I'm not being naive here. It's a strange thing, the customer-dancer interaction, because it works on several levels.
Customers come in all kinds. Most at my club are 'normal' business guys, looking for somewhere to go for escape (they are usually from out of town, don't know anyone...getting a drink at a strip club alone is not unusual). They ask about me, what I'm gonna do with my degree, tell me about their travels. Often give me advice about whatever (yeah, school usually, since that's what they've done before me). And then when we go to the champagne room and I dance for them, the talking stops, but the respect doesn't ALWAYS fall away (yes, it does sometimes, and the funny thing is when they treat me as a person, then sexual thing, then the song stops and it's like the hynotist has clapped his hands- they go back to treating me like a person, wish me luck in exams as they go, etc). Often, since we've had a social interaction before the dance starts, me with clothes on, the respect continues during the dance. Like I said, not always, but more often than not.
So I don't know. Men do take the whole thing in a funny way. But they can see me as a person and this sexual thing. They don't look at me condescendingly like "dance bitch, here's the cash". Not at all.
Customers come in all kinds. Most at my club are 'normal' business guys, looking for somewhere to go for escape (they are usually from out of town, don't know anyone...getting a drink at a strip club alone is not unusual). They ask about me, what I'm gonna do with my degree, tell me about their travels. Often give me advice about whatever (yeah, school usually, since that's what they've done before me). And then when we go to the champagne room and I dance for them, the talking stops, but the respect doesn't ALWAYS fall away (yes, it does sometimes, and the funny thing is when they treat me as a person, then sexual thing, then the song stops and it's like the hynotist has clapped his hands- they go back to treating me like a person, wish me luck in exams as they go, etc). Often, since we've had a social interaction before the dance starts, me with clothes on, the respect continues during the dance. Like I said, not always, but more often than not.
So I don't know. Men do take the whole thing in a funny way. But they can see me as a person and this sexual thing. They don't look at me condescendingly like "dance bitch, here's the cash". Not at all.
Molly
New member
joe_eschaton said:
Keep your compassion for the starving children. And keep your twenties for unicef if you feel so bad.
ha, I study ethics. And it's amazing that people can scorn and slander us 'whores in waiting', spend so much energy on it, and then do nothing about the real ethical tragedies of today. I give a utilitarian approved percentage of my income to Oxfam (10%, plus I donate to UNICEF and greenpeace).
joe_eschaton
New member
Molly said:
These people don't need money... they need a slap.
joe_eschaton
New member
Molly said:
I take it that point didn't come up in advanced ethics...
lol
Sadistic Bastard
No Mercy
Ahhh....ethics, one of my favorite topics.
Maybe I should start a separate thread on relative vs. absolute standards of morality?
Maybe I should start a separate thread on relative vs. absolute standards of morality?