Palin under investigation for ethics violations, could be impeached as governor

[eloisel]

Just to clarify regarding it is life when a woman knows she is pregnant - ask those of us who have had a wanted pregnancy end in miscarriage - that baby was a life and a loss. It doesn't change the fact that the unborn child is a living being just because the one carrying it in their womb doesn't want the child.

 

[Sarek]

Here's an idea, conservatives like to invoke god in just about everything and are dying to try and mix politics and religion as much as possible.

How about you guys let people use one of the gifts god gave us, free will, to decide if abortion is right or not? You know, then if we're wrong, he can send us to hell or whatever. But let him, it, she or whatever make the decision on judgment day?

Or don't you have faith that god will do the right thing?

 

[Alyssum]

I think that's my basic point. And Eloisel now backs up every point I was trying to make, which is a relief, actually.

 

[eloisel]

Where have I invoked god or mixed politics with religion?

 

[Alyssum]

Everywhere. "Baby killing Democrats", is a great start. Since you're referring to a religious reference to when life begins, as opposed to a scientifically medical model accepted by the peer group of society and law, and referring to Obama in the same breath.

 

[eloisel]

Call it what you will but you said I was stupid and crazy because my feelings about abortion are different than yours. The odd thing is, we basically agree. You claim you believe that women only make the choice to kill their unborn for medical emergencies or some other type of tragedy. I wish that were true. And mabye from your personal experience you believe all women are that way. But, women can be nasty creatures, just like men.

After 35 plus years of this argument, though, I know that them that will kill will kill no matter what I think or say. I know that they will fight me to my death to keep their right to kill their unborn. Those same people will cry that it is wrong to put to death people who were allowed to be born who killed other people who were allowed to be born. Those same people will demand I be put to death if I am ever unfortunate to be on a life support device and unable to speak for myself.

Sadly, people have throughout the history of mankind murdered their children for various reasons. While people are better now at murdering children before they are born, people certainly haven't evolved one little bit in respect for the right to life for others.

...

 

[eloisel]

Here's an idea, conservatives like to invoke god in just about everything and are dying to try and mix politics and religion as much as possible.

How about you guys let people use one of the gifts god gave us, free will, to decide if abortion is right or not? You know, then if we're wrong, he can send us to hell or whatever. But let him, it, she or whatever make the decision on judgment day?

Or don't you have faith that god will do the right thing?

You are the one invoked god, not me. Over the last 35 years there hasn't been anything I can do about the ever so enlightened, superior thinking, always right, knows everything people like you who continue to kill your unborn children for any reason. You can justify it any way that lets you live with yourself - "a baby will interefere with my school, my job, my relationship with my boyfriend or spouse isn't good, the mother's body is only a life support system, it isn't a living being, etc." - and call it by any name you choose, but a murder is a murder is a murder no matter what you call all the babies killed "legally" over the last 35 years in the name of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton. If your god wants to take it up with you, then that is between you and your god. Personally, I don't have any faith in your god. He or she pretty much sucks.

 

[Cassie]

Why is abortion such a big deal? There are so many more important issues they could be concerned with, and it's always abortion that clouds the debates. It's not the government's job to regulate morality. It's not the government's job to provide birth control either. That little blob of cells is as alive as a houseplant, the whole debate over when life begins is silly..it's alive from the start, and so what?

 

[eloisel]

Everywhere. "Baby killing Democrats", is a great start. Since you're referring to a religious reference to when life begins, as opposed to a scientifically medical model accepted by the peer group of society and law, and referring to Obama in the same breath.

I have not made a religious reference. Do a search in this thread and you will discover who is invoking god. It isn't me. I stated what I believe is the beginning of life. If you wish to think of me as a goddess, be my guest.

Further, it is the agreement among the so called "peer group of society and law" that when life begins is not something that has been impirically proven. Therefore, a compromise was made and the determining factor defined as viability outside the womb so that those who needed the definition would know how long they had to kill their unborn children legally.

Obama sucks too.

 

[eloisel]

Why is abortion such a big deal? There are so many more important issues they could be concerned with, and it's always abortion that clouds the debates. It's not the government's job to regulate morality. It's not the government's job to provide birth control either. That little blob of cells is as alive as a houseplant, the whole debate over when life begins is silly..it's alive from the start, and so what?

Basically I agree with you and that is why the Republicans suck as much as the Democrats right now. Even if Roe v. Wade, Doe v. Bolton and the Planned Parenthood decisions were overturned and abortion made illegal again, it would not change the fact that people who will murder their unborn children will continue to do so, as they always have. At this time there are much more important issues that need to be dealt with instead of expending all this energy over such a divisive issue that no matter what one holds as a core truth will ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Yet both the Democrats and the Republicans have chosen to make abortion a platform issue in this election.

I do believe that abortion used as a form of birth control is murder. To insist that I must accept murder of unborn children for any reason is as abhorrent as those that insist I must not accept abortion for any reason. However, as I have expressed repeatedly, I advocate stare decisis in this matter because of what it was like before abortion was made legal and the fact that making abortion illegal again would not stop women from using abortion as a form of birth control.

I disagree with you on "that little blob of cells" being as alive as a houseplant. There is a difference with regards to potential. You know that the houseplant by itself has little potential to contribute to the benefit of mankind or life in general. That is not the case with unborn children. There is no telling who they could have become, or who their children could have become, or who their grandchildren could have become, or who their great-grandchildren could have become, etc.

Determining when life begins is important. If an unborn child is considered alive, then it has protections under the law.

In the current elections, the subject of abortion is only important to me because it shows me the type of person the candidates are. To Obama, unwanted pregnancies are "punishment" for "embarassing little mistakes." To McCain, it is leverage with a power base for votes. Both of them suck.

 

[Sarek]

You are the one invoked god, not me. Over the last 35 years there hasn't been anything I can do about the ever so enlightened, superior thinking, always right, knows everything people like you who continue to kill your unborn children for any reason. You can justify it any way that lets you live with yourself - "a baby will interefere with my school, my job, my relationship with my boyfriend or spouse isn't good, the mother's body is only a life support system, it isn't a living being, etc." - and call it by any name you choose, but a murder is a murder is a murder no matter what you call all the babies killed "legally" over the last 35 years in the name of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton. If your god wants to take it up with you, then that is between you and your god. Personally, I don't have any faith in your god. He or she pretty much sucks.

Well, first of all, unless you guys start classifying masturbation as mass genocide, I've never killed any of my unborn children. I personally don’t think that abortion would be my choice. However, I do think that abortion should be a private matter left to the decision of the parent/parents. And that's what makes us different. I'm willing to allow others to do what they believe is right for them and in the end, suffer any consequences for their actions/decisions in the presence of god.

You guys on the other hand want to FORCE your beliefs on everyone else and remove free will from the equation. And then yank any type of support systems for the families of the unwanted children. Lets face it, the majority of the abortions in this country stem from the poor or poverty stricken. So you guys want to force them to have the kids, yet take away all the “blood sucking” programs that might help then get ahead.

And you’re right, murder is murder. So what do we do with George Bush and all the innocents that have been killed in his “war on terror”? Oh, that’s right, they consider that “collateral damage” and not innocent people. Perhaps we should start calling a unborn fetus from an act of rape “collateral damage” from an act of violence and you guys might back off a bit.

As far as god goes, my god is better than your god because he gave me free will and the ability to think for myself. Can’t ask for much more from a benevolent being.

 

[Sarek]

Obama sucks too.

Oh, come on. McCane is old, hows that for a slam?

Frankly, I'm hoping Palin sucks. I'd like to find a few photos of that on the net.

 

[Starship Coyote]

 

[bad dog]

Frankly, I'm hoping Palin sucks. I'd like to find a few photos of that on the net.

Hell, she can come to my house.

 

[Alyssum]

This discussion is over for me. Same old idealogues and stupidity.

Hopefully the campaign will introduce some dialogue and intelligence into the debate.

I'm voting Obama, and have joined the campaign as an organizer.

 

[Alyssum]

Palin = George Bush with a vagina, go figure.

 

[eloisel]

Well, first of all, unless you guys start classifying masturbation as mass genocide, I've never killed any of my unborn children. I personally don’t think that abortion would be my choice. However, I do think that abortion should be a private matter left to the decision of the parent/parents. And that's what makes us different. I'm willing to allow others to do what they believe is right for them and in the end, suffer any consequences for their actions/decisions in the presence of god.

You guys on the other hand want to FORCE your beliefs on everyone else and remove free will from the equation. And then yank any type of support systems for the families of the unwanted children. Lets face it, the majority of the abortions in this country stem from the poor or poverty stricken. So you guys want to force them to have the kids, yet take away all the “blood sucking” programs that might help then get ahead.

And you’re right, murder is murder. So what do we do with George Bush and all the innocents that have been killed in his “war on terror”? Oh, that’s right, they consider that “collateral damage” and not innocent people. Perhaps we should start calling a unborn fetus from an act of rape “collateral damage” from an act of violence and you guys might back off a bit.

As far as god goes, my god is better than your god because he gave me free will and the ability to think for myself. Can’t ask for much more from a benevolent being.

So, if I agree with you and think the way you do, then I have free will, am thinking for myself, and I am sane, intelligent, and all other manner of good things? And you say your god doesn't suck.

 

[Sarek]

So, if I agree with you and think the way you do, then I have free will, am thinking for myself, and I am sane, intelligent, and all other manner of good things? And you say your god doesn't suck.

Well, look at it this way;

If I thought the way you do, I'd FORCE you to embrace my beliefs.

 

[eloisel]

How have I forced you to embrace my beliefs?

 

[Alyssum]

I think that's a red herring in this argument, actually. The rhetoric heated up when you stated that being a Democrat meant being a baby killer. Tape loop rhetoric sucks, especially when the truth of it is the Democratic "right" (which you refuse to acknowledge) is probably more prolife than the fascist neocon agenda which you lockstep to when you use that rhetoric.

When I listened to Schafly on NPR a couple days ago, I was reminded of these threads, and in particular your rhetoric. Being democratic doesn't mean being pro-abortion, it just means that Democrats seem to respect the individual liberties of women in particular more than Republicans do.

That's how it feels. Am I wrong?