Seperation of Church & State vs. Judaism -- Another Example

TJHairball

I love this place
jack said:
TJ, and Wordin, these folks are actually correct by their definition, at least as it relates to jewishness. Because if you are born into a Jewish family, whether you accept the religion, practice it or not, you are still "Jewish", by heritage and by religion.
I don't really dispute that particular definition. It's fairly widely accepted as such (with the exception of those who go off and migrate to another religion, at which point it gets a little hairy and a little disputed, but that's pretty rare.)

What I do take odds with is that hairy definition of "Christian," which - as we all know - is something that people have had trouble agreeing on over the years. And all the arguments boil down to some basic definitional disputes as to what is and is not Christian.
 

jack

The Legendary Troll Kingdom
Talk to an Episcopalian. IMHO that's the purest definition of practicing Christianity in an organized religion (if you will allow me that genericism) that I can see, at least according to what I think Christ was really up to when He Walked The Earth.
 

jack

The Legendary Troll Kingdom
How can I steal your points if you keep banking them?
 

TJHairball

I love this place
Peter Octavian said:
Yes. Thousands.

I officiate wedding ceremonies at the local UU with some frequency.

You were saying?
While it is nice to hear where you're coming from, if you're familiar with one local UU church, that's generally not "thousands" of UUs. Very few UU churches run over a thousand including members, children, or even regular attendees. Most congregations with actual physical church buildings to their name have perhaps 100 people who show up on a regular basis, and perhaps several hundred UUs who show up over the course of a given year or so.
 

Peter Octavian

New Member
TJHairball said:
While it is nice to hear where you're coming from, if you're familiar with one local UU church, that's generally not "thousands" of UUs. Very few UU churches run over a thousand including members, children, or even regular attendees. Most congregations with actual physical church buildings to their name have perhaps 100 people who show up on a regular basis, and perhaps several hundred UUs who show up over the course of a given year or so.


A typical Hairball tactic: Discredit the speaker's claim without having any first hand knowledge of his or her experience.
 

TJHairball

I love this place
Peter Octavian said:
A typical Hairball tactic: Discredit the speaker's claim without having any first hand knowledge of his or her experience.
What, can't take a little expression of doubt? The suggestion that you may have been exaggerating a bit, albeit not necessarily intentionally, when you claimed to know thousands?

Review. You and I have been disagreeing somewhat over UUs, both in what UUs believe and how they interact with other denominations. I make a claim to greater expertise, based on a vast familiarity with thousands of UUs from a variety of places and a variety of churches, along with their interactions with the rest of the community and people from other denominations. You return to say that you believe firmly that you are as much of an expert as I am; I express polite but firm doubt, suggesting that officiating now and then at the local UU church may not develop the same broad expertise that I have, both on UUs and on their interactions with members of other denominations and/or faiths.

In a word, you're throwing a hissy fit over this point of contention now, instead of discussing the matter further until we either agree to disagree or take another's "expert" opinion under consideration.
 

The Question

Eternal
WordInterrupted said:
How are you defining Christianity? If you look at Universalist ethical teachings, they're essentially a humanist reading of the New Testament.

A humanist reading of...

You just can't get ahold of a clue when it's draped over you like a wet blanket, can you, Lightnin'?
 

Peter Octavian

New Member
TJHairball said:
What, can't take a little expression of doubt? The suggestion that you may have been exaggerating a bit, albeit not necessarily intentionally, when you claimed to know thousands?

Review. You and I have been disagreeing somewhat over UUs, both in what UUs believe and how they interact with other denominations. I make a claim to greater expertise, based on a vast familiarity with thousands of UUs from a variety of places and a variety of churches, along with their interactions with the rest of the community and people from other denominations. You return to say that you believe firmly that you are as much of an expert as I am; I express polite but firm doubt, suggesting that officiating now and then at the local UU church may not develop the same broad expertise that I have, both on UUs and on their interactions with members of other denominations and/or faiths.

In a word, you're throwing a hissy fit over this point of contention now, instead of discussing the matter further until we either agree to disagree or take another's "expert" opinion under consideration.

I never was commenting on how UU's interact. I know for a fact that UU's tend to be open minded and accepting...as a rule. I was commenting on how other denominations view them. I'm not throwing a hissy fit, I'm just stating outright that you don't know what you're talking about when you try selling the idea that "Christians" have more than a tolerant regard for UU's.

The unwritten doctrine of "we're right, you're wrong" is intrinisic to most Christian denominations. This principle is practiced interdenominationally with other Christians, and applies even moreso to any who are not Christians. UU's open their doors to pagans and buddhists, for example, and those individuals are welcomed as part of the congregation. In most Christian churches, pagans and buddhists may be allowed into the building, and may be welcome to stay for the sermon or homily, but they are, most decidedly not welcome as part of the congregation, part of the church family. They are not welcome to participate in the ritual (for instance, pagans or buddhists are not welcome to take the sacrament of communion, nor would congregation leader, priest or minister allow them to be married according denominational tradition). If they accept the tenets of Christianity officially, renouncing their previous beliefs, they will then, generally conditionally, be welcome.

You're simply kidding yourself if you believe that Christians embrace the Unitarian Universalists as anything but a cult. Oh, they may be worthy of prayers for salvation, but so far as dogma is concerned, they're beating a path to hell, or are, at the very least, going to need a generous portion of mercy for following an errant belief structure when they go to get their rewards. That is the Christian company line, and those who don't tow it fall out of favor.

As for your aspersions about my experience: I've had either a direct or peripheral association with the UU church, as well as a number of others for the last 25 years. I'm not a believer, but I have found to my involvements with religion to be quite educational.
 

WordInterrupted

Troll Kingdom Ambassador
A humanist reading of...

You just can't get ahold of a clue when it's draped over you like a wet blanket, can you, Lightnin'?

Humanism comes directly out of the Christian ethical tardition. You can define Christianity to exclude a humanist reading of the bible, but I don't think it makes any sense.
 

Peter Octavian

New Member
WordInterrupted said:
Humanism comes directly out of the Christian ethical tardition.


Yes, the challenged sect of Christianity.

But I'm surprised you used the perjorative, "tard". Wouldn't it have been nicer if you suggested "differently abled"?
 

WordInterrupted

Troll Kingdom Ambassador
Yes, the challenged sect of Christianity.

But I'm surprised you used the perjorative, "tard". Wouldn't it have been nicer if you suggested "differently abled"?

Hehehehehe... "tardition," I'll have to remember that one.
 

TJHairball

I love this place
Peter Octavian said:
You're simply kidding yourself if you believe that Christians embrace the Unitarian Universalists as anything but a cult.
My experience is that most people aren't quite sure who or what you're talking about. As to what they do believe, it usually ends up depending on who tells them what when they're told what a UU is - in my experience.

I recall one girl I knew once who swore up and down that all UUs were definitely Christians, based on some relative of hers she knew to be one - every counterexample I ever gave her, she simply ignored. As far as she was concerned, UUism was just yet another denomination of Protestant Christianity with PC language attached.
Peter Octavian said:
Oh, they may be worthy of prayers for salvation, but so far as dogma is concerned, they're beating a path to hell, or are, at the very least, going to need a generous portion of mercy for following an errant belief structure when they go to get their rewards. That is the Christian company line, and those who don't tow it fall out of favor.
Peter Octavian said:
The unwritten doctrine of "we're right, you're wrong" is intrinisic to most Christian denominations. This principle is practiced interdenominationally with other Christians, and applies even moreso to any who are not Christians.
"Yes, but..." Sure, most churches do lay official claim to being exclusively right; sure, the official line usually reads a lot like that.

But if you're just asking people who think of themselves as Christian as a bulk, it's not nearly so cut and dried. It's not that hard for me to find citations of survey results for "Good Atheists go to Heaven" (44% of Americans surveyed - 1999 USA Today/CNN/Gallup) "All who do not accept Christ as Savior are going to Hell" (39% 1996 Metrovoice of Central New York). This, with most in the US identifying themselves as "Christian." That doesn't sound like a belief that "Them UUs are going to Hell." At the very least, a very significant minority of Christians don't appear to believe this by the related indicators.

Sometimes I think that if there weren't any people severely disgusted with the political stances taken by their churches as organizations or any interfaith marriage, the UU church would've died out by now, and there are more individuals whose private beliefs don't mesh exactly with express church doctrine. I've known a reasonable number of Catholics who favor having women in the clergy, for example. There are a fair number of self-professed Christians who don't believe in Hell, or don't believe in Jesus as really divine - although you would probably then label these non-Christian.

Frankly, the bulk of people identifying themselves as "Christian" seem to be rather casual about it.
 
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