What do we think about Stanley "Tookie" Williams?

[Laker_Girl]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10355657/

I think my view is obvious as I support the death penalty.

To say that Tookie, who co-founded one of the most deadly and notorious gangs in history doesn't deserve to die for that alone, nevermind what he's actually on death row for, is hippy-la-la crap.

His lawyers would like us to believe that because someone was actually stupid enough to publish books the criminal wrote in jail denouncing his former lifestyle that somehow that makes up for his heinous crime. THE MAN STILL CLAIMS THAT HE IS INNOCENT! Nevermind that he's no damn example to anyone, period. Hell, the man has two sons, one is wanted in San Bernardino, California for raping a 14 year old girl and the other is awaiting trial for murder. He can't keep his sons on the straight and narrow but he's a great example to everyone elses' children, right? Bullshit.

Needle that heartless sack of shit and end his miserable exsistence.

 

[Big Dick McGee]

The world would be better if he were no longer consuming natural resources, but was instead becoming compost in a pauper's grave.

 

[Laker_Girl]

^Oh I'm sure his boys will pour a forty for him. Once a nigger gansta, always a nigger gangsta.

 

[Friday]

What is the price of a human life, anyway?

I'm not arguing this man not pay society for his heinous crimes. However, if one youth's life can be positively swayed by his books/teachings, I say it is worth the cost of keeping him in prison for the rest of his natural life.

It really all comes down to this, doesn't it: Which is more important...following the letter of the law, or potentially preventing others from following in his footsteps?

L_G, there's not much chance for parenting behind bars. I think his sons' environment had at least a small part to play in their current predicaments.

 

[Number_6]

Grow up.

 

[The Question]

What is the price of a human life, anyway?

Dunno, but it's four to his one. Dying is the least he can do to even the score.

I'm not arguing this man not pay society for his heinous crimes. However, if one youth's life can be positively swayed by his books/teachings, I say it is worth the cost of keeping him in prison for the rest of his natural life.

I'm not sure I can conceive of a way in which there's much in his books that would sway the attitudes of any youth who reads them, if only because anyone who would actually sit down and read a book is probably not the kind of youth who's at risk of leading a life like his.

It really all comes down to this, doesn't it: Which is more important...following the letter of the law, or potentially preventing others from following in his footsteps?

Following the letter of the law in this case would make following in his footsteps pretty unappealing.

L_G, there's not much chance for parenting behind bars. I think his sons' environment had at least a small part to play in their current predicaments.

But he had a very, very large part to play in shaping that environment, so it's still down to him.

 

[Laker_Girl]

What is the price of a human life, anyway?

You should pose this question to Tookie Williams.

I'm not arguing this man not pay society for his heinous crimes. However, if one youth's life can be positively swayed by his books/teachings, I say it is worth the cost of keeping him in prison for the rest of his natural life.

There is no proof that Tookie Williams has swayed anyone at all from a life of crime with his books and "teachings". The man is not an educator, he's a murderer who got his two cents in.

It really all comes down to this, doesn't it: Which is more important...following the letter of the law, or potentially preventing others from following in his footsteps?

"Potentially" is simply not good enough.

L_G, there's not much chance for parenting behind bars. I think his sons' environment had at least a small part to play in their current predicaments.

WHAT?! Like Tookie would have been father of the year had he not been on death row for murder? THE MAN CO-FOUNDED THE CRIPS! His children fulfilled their destiny and are no better than the man you and many other bleeding hearts believe should be allowed to live in the face of his muderous ways.

Shame on you.

 

[Friday]

I'm not sure I can conceive of a way in which there's much in his books that would sway the attitudes of any youth who reads them, if only because anyone who would actually sit down and read a book is probably not the kind of youth who's at risk of leading a life like his.

My experience dictates otherwise. How easy it is to just give up on a life that has gone awry. It takes work and commitment to turn a life around. I understand that some, however, do not think this is their responsibility. How sad for society..

Following the letter of the law in this case would make following in his footsteps pretty unappealing.

This, I concede to a point.

But he had a very, very large part to play in shaping that environment, so it's still down to him.

Bad parenting by proxy?

 

[Friday]

There is no proof that Tookie Williams has swayed anyone at all from a life of crime with his books and "teachings". The man is not an educator, he's a murderer who got his two cents in. "Potentially" is simply not good enough.

For this quote, Number_6's sig is very appropriate. No, there is no proof. "Potentially" is good enough for me. When I think about situations like this, I can't help but wonder how my nephew would have turned out if I gave up on him, and labelled him as "just another drunken teen junkie". Through support and self education (he actually...gasp...read in jail), he's turned his life around.

This is why I don't give up...on anyone.

WHAT?! Like Tookie would have been father of the year had he not been on death row for murder? THE MAN CO-FOUNDED THE CRIPS! His children fulfilled their destiny and are no better than the man you and many other bleeding hearts believe should be allowed to live in the face of his murderous ways.

Shame on you.

See my above statement about not giving up on people.

 

[Friday]

Grow up.

I thought we agreed to cool it for awhile?

 

[Number_6]

I thought we agreed to cool it for awhile?

You keep making stupid statements based on emotional nonsense, I'll keep pointing them out.

The love-in is over. This guy founded the Crips, for fuck's sake. Do you have any fucking idea what that means? Do you have any feeling for all of the victims of the Crips, including those who are forced to live in neighborhoods run by the Crips? People who are forced to endure this shit in their own communities?

Surely your great big leftist heart can muster up some feeling for these people, and understand that they need their children--their own fucking children--to see the fruits of gang affiliation.

I thank God you are not responsible for running the world, because your naivete would get us all killed.

 

[The Question]

My experience dictates otherwise. How easy it is to just give up on a life that has gone awry. It takes work and commitment to turn a life around. I understand that some, however, do not think this is their responsibility. How sad for society.

Not at all -- it does take work and commitment to turn a life around, but that can only be done by the individual whose life needs turning around, or it just won't take. Their peers can help with that, but they can't motivate it and they can't see it through. It comes down to the man every time -- and if the will is there, everyone else is only secondary. If it isn't, well... all the kings horses and all the kings men. The fact is that this man only saw a need to turn his life around when faced with the knowledge that it would be taken from him in exchange for his taking of four others'. That's what it took, and I'm sure others saw it coming and tried to point it out. That obviously didn't work.

Bad parenting by proxy?

Engineering your life so badly that parenting has to be done by proxy, yes.

 

[Number_6]

^^You're wasting your time. She simply will not accept that people who've fucked their own lives up--and the lives of others around them--bear any responsibility for it. It's all society's fault, whatever the fuck that means.

A lot of this stems from the fact that she's fucked her own life up, and doesn't want to be responsible for it. When she finally takes responsibility for herself, and acts in her own life to turn it around and make it better, perhaps she'll begin to understand that other people have the responsibility to do the same.

Once again, South Park is relevant to the discussion. Last night's episode, in which Stan's father is arrested for drunk driving, attends an AA meeting and is convinced that he suffers from a disease and cannot cure himself, but must submit to God and hope for outside help, speaks directly to PBM's mindset. Stan keeps protesting that his father does not suffer from a disease, and must make the decision himself to simply drink less, but his father has been brainwashed into thinking that his actions are completely out of his own control.

This seems to be the viewpoint PBM takes on anyone and everyone who fucks up.

 

[Friday]

Stop fucking getting personal, Number_6.

You've breached a trust, and stepped over a line.

 

[Laker_Girl]

^Well that distorts AA.

AA believes in personal responsibility but it also says that we are powerless over other people, places, and things, which is true. Alcoholism is a disease, there's no question about it but it's not a disease one has no power over, it's not cancer.

Tookie Williams does not suffer from any disease, he's just a power and money hungry, manipulative bastard, period.

 

[Number_6]

Stop fucking getting personal, Number_6.

You've breached a trust, and stepped over a line.

Hardly. I've not said anything that you haven't said in threads here and at WF. Your Blue Room threads provide the insight I'm utilizing to critique your worldview, not anything you've ever said via PM.

You're the one who's making it personal, but insisting that the world run according to your feelings. Many of us aren't interested in building a civilization based on your feelings, and are in fact frightened of how screwed up and dangerous such a world would be.

You can't make all of these arguments from personal experience and personal feelings without having someone call that experience and those feelings into question. You don't seem to understand that. And you don't seem to understand that while personal feelings may be a place to start trying to understand the world, they need to be tested by logic and reason before drawing conclusions about the way the world works and making policy pronouncement.

 

[Number_6]

^Well that distorts AA.

AA believes in personal responsibility but it also says that we are powerless over other people, places, and things, which is true. Alcoholism is a disease, there's no question about it but it's not a disease one has no power over, it's not cancer.

Tookie Williams does not suffer from any disease, he's just a power and money hungry, manipulative bastard, period.

Oh, no doubt. South Park exaggerates and distorts in the service of making a point, which was precisely the one you're making. The individual has control over alcoholism, but not cancer. Stan's father insisted that he needed a miracle from God to conquer alcoholism, and went to stand in line with a bunch of people to be healed by a statue of the Virgin Mary that was bleeding out of its asshole. He cut in line in front of people with cancer, elephatitis, etc., all the while insisting that his disease was more dire than theirs, and his need for a cure more urgent.

And yes, Tookie Williams is a complete piece of shit, a blight on the landscape, and deserves the just sentence that has been handed down.

 

[Friday]

Put your money where your mouth is.

Where, in my Blue Room threads, do I admit to having fucked up my own life? And where can you infer I refuse to take responsibility for it?

I'm seriously beginning to think TQ is right. You enjoy fucking with me.

It ends. Here. Now.

 

[Friday]

^Well that distorts AA.

AA believes in personal responsibility but it also says that we are powerless over other people, places, and things, which is true. Alcoholism is a disease, there's no question about it but it's not a disease one has no power over, it's not cancer.

Tookie Williams does not suffer from any disease, he's just a power and money hungry, manipulative bastard, period.

You make sense, L_G. Alcoholism is a disease, but one that can be controlled with personal diligence and support.

 

[Number_6]

Your Blue Room threads are full of reported missteps and subsequent rationalization, as well as a desire for others to understand your feelings and take your side. You've basically told your whole life story over there, and it doesn't take much to start making connections between the life events you've chosen to divulge and your politics. They go hand-in-hand. You repeatedly cast yourself in the role of victim in the Blue Room (and elsewhere on Wordforge), and you've expanded your attitude towards your own perceived victimization to include others who've bought into the cult of victimization, like the poor Tookie Williams.

Look, you come into a forum with my name on it spouting leftist nonsense that you know I disagree with. You create a dual and lay claim to the forum during my absence, in the hopes of bringing me back. You post things that you know are going to garner a negative reaction from me in the hopes that I will return to Troll Kingdom and play.

Well, here I am. This is what you get. TQ is incorrect; I don't enjoy fucking with you. I find you exhausting. You have a distinct inability to deal with the real world, and insist on creating thread after thread in which you basically expound upon the cult of your own feelings.

That's fine. You have the right to do that, and I'm not asking you to stop. Even if you are deliberately trolling me, I'm not asking you to stop. This is Troll Kingdom. Getting trolled is par for the course.

But don't expect that I'm going to sit back and let you do it. If you want to get into arguments with me, that's fine, but do expect that I'm going to argue back. And if I see a connection between your messy thinking and your life--the life you've made public, mind you, not anything additional I might know about you via PM--I'm going to point it out. You see, I think that's really the way you need to be taught. You need to understand that you are so completely mired in your own subjectivity that you can no longer perceive the objective reality around you. If you can penetrate the barrier of your own subjectivity, you might start thinking according to the laws of logic and reason, and you might start to understand why it is that the world always falls short of your expectations. The world is what it is--there is simply no escaping that. Singing Joan Baez songs and desperately wanting some sort of 1960s inspired utopia isn't going to result in a better world.

And that's where you have to start. With the world as it is, warts and all. It is only by starting there that you can move to something better. Starting from perfection and then trying to pull the world up to that perfection is doomed to failure, every time.

So, if this ends. Here. Now. that means that you're going to have to stop trying to bait me into arguing with you. Because I'm going to argue with you. I tried to simply ignore the crap you post in here, but you wouldn't let me do that--you had to keep calling me out.

So you decide what you want. And let me know what precisely that is.