Laker_Girl leaves ShatteredCorpse

[missmanners]

Anyone who truly believes tax money is theirs to do with as they wish should stop paying taxes for a year or two and report back what happens.

If they can still afford a computer that is...

I haven't paid federal or any other kind of income tax in years. However getting out of the other taxes built into every dollar I spend is impossible.


mm

 

[Sarek]

You try to make it seem as though if the government is some sort of entity in itself which needs to be spoonfed cash. There is no money that 'belongs to' the government because its purpose is to serve as a centralized intermediary between the people and their labor & capital, and to redistributed it accordingly. It's still their money. Simply because the government decides how to spend it directly doesn't make it 'its' money.


You're paying for a service rendered when you pay the bill. I have no idea what this false analogy is supposed to illustrate.

Actually, I understand what Donovan is saying. Though I don't agree with it, at the same time, it's a great illustration of how the people of the United States have forgotten that the government is supposed to be for the people, and controlled by the people. Not the other way around.

Far to often I hear people bow to the governments wishes and them crawl inside their little bubbles thinking that they have no right or responsibility to hold the government accountable or question it's activities. They think it's just given that government will always look out for their best interests and conduct itself to the highest of ethical and moral standards.

Ogami is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

 

[Donovan]

What's wrong with despising certain aspects of a culture when those aspects are well and truly despicable? Hating people just because they look different is stupid, obviously -- but isn't it just as stupid to hate people for refusing to keep silent when they see something stupid and destructive? Is it not possible to hate "gangsta" culture, for example, without hating all black people? Is it impossible to hate Zionism without hating all Jews? If so, aren't 99% of Americans, then, virulently hateful toward whites because they disdain neo-Nazis?

There are a good many sociocultural aspects I personally despise, and I see your point. However, I also see these aspects misattributed by the person doing the labelling.

For example, the Gangsta culture may have originally been a "black" thing, but that was long ago and has since been replaced by the "baller" style in black communities. The biggest perpetrators of Gangsta even in the 90's were suburban white kids. They bought the albums, dressed the style, and talked the talk of wigger ghetto, which in turn alienated the blacks who started the trend and made them move away from it.

Likewise, Laker Girl's hatred of "black culture" as depicted in bland innocuous shows like Cosby and Different World wasn't a condemnation of actual black culture but a bitter slam at the idea of blacks being nice, successful and nonviolent toward each other. I'm pretty sure this is where the comments of racism came from, not anything else she said. Cosby's shows were vapid and banal, but most certainly were not stupid and destructive.

There is no problem with vilifying a certain subset for their inappropriate acts or habits, but you have to aim your hate at the RIGHT group.

Kinda like blowing up Iraquis for the sins of a bunch of Saudi Arabians...

 

[Tyrant]

That's pretty much exactly what it is: a self-perpetuating machine that requires constant feeding to keep it functioning.

That might be what it is, but that isn't what it's advertised as.

Incorrect. Taxes are the fees citizens pay for the right to be governed in the manner they have selected for themselves.

You really might want to revise this, or at least elaborate on it.

We get to decide who makes the laws and to some extent how they make them, but the actual funding of said government is paid for by taxes, which amount to fees for services rendered.

Taxes are meant to comprise A) Funds needed for public services and infrastructure, and B) The administrative costs of maintaining the government. In any case, it isn't the 'government's money.'

See above. Your tax dollars are your payment for the right to a bloated, inefficient, self-perpetuating democratic government in all its flawed glory.

Got a pretty good deal on it, all things considered. Our views of things seem to differ in that you are speaking of theoretical government while I am describing the reality of the situation.

Not quite. The reality is that the government has to actively hide expentitures which the public wouldn't be happy with. Why? Because the money belongs to the taxpayers, not the government. If it is in reality 'government money' (Who's heard that term?) then the government wouldn't be subject to public scrutiny.

Anyone who truly believes tax money is theirs to do with as they wish should stop paying taxes for a year or two and report back what happens.

If they can still afford a computer that is...

Plenty of people have opted out of paying the illegal income tax foistered on the American citizen. Other taxes come in the form of sales tax, etc, and can't be avoided unless you wish to become totally self-sufficient.

 

[Donovan]

That might be what it is, but that isn't what it's advertised as.

My point exactly. Advertising doesn't mean squat, or my favorite beer would consistently get me laid by hot girls in bikinis...

You really might want to revise this, or at least elaborate on it.

For the purposes of this discussion, no. That would bore everyone out of the thread. The short version: people "select" how they wish to be governed by voting-for or against their favorite lawmaker, and for or against a proposed tax amendment (school tax hikes are a good example). Once the votes are in, the lawmaker (whose salary is paid for in part via collected taxes) helps to govern the people of the nation by attempting to gather some of the collected tax money for his or her own constituents. In this way we are "choosing" the way we are governed. The recent elections are a dramatic example of this I think.

Taxes are meant to comprise A) Funds needed for public services and infrastructure, and B) The administrative costs of maintaining the government. In any case, it isn't the 'government's money.'

This is what I have been saying all along, with the difference that if a tax payment is required by law, as taxes are, then it is NOT in fact your money once it's gone. It's theirs, no matter how you want to squint at it in theory.

Not quite. The reality is that the government has to actively hide expentitures which the public wouldn't be happy with. Why? Because the money belongs to the taxpayers, not the government. If it is in reality 'government money' (Who's heard that term?) then the government wouldn't be subject to public scrutiny.

This is more because our particular form of government is designed to give us much more power to replace or eject a bad leader. In point of fact, the American people almost NEVER want to approve of taxation. If our leaders came right out and admitted everything they waste those dollars on, the public would scream bloody murder as a kneejerk reaction and that guy would be gone with the next vote. That's why negative ads always use the spectre of higher taxes so effectively. The very concept of not having control of "your tax dollars at work" sends people into a tizzy, as evidenced here.

Plenty of people have opted out of paying the illegal income tax foistered on the American citizen. Other taxes come in the form of sales tax, etc, and can't be avoided unless you wish to become totally self-sufficient.

Sure, Al Capone comes to mind. We're arguing semantics here. The vast majority of Americans pay income tax or face substantial penalties up to and including jail time. And NO ONE by your own admission is totally exempt from any sort of tax. Becoming self sufficient, while decidedly utopian and almost communistic, would be impossible in reality. Why? Because self-sufficient, autonomous communities make the Government nervous. Ask those Branch Davidians how that works out when the Government gets nervous...

And missmanners doesn't count. She's Amish.

 

[Big Dick McGee]

wrong thread

 

[Big Dick McGee]

You Canadians need more gold toothed cupcakeers shooting up your neighborhoods. Then you will understand.

Fucking A. There is no "black culture" or "Mexican Culture" or "Asian culture" in America. There is American culture. Promoting a different culture based on your race or ethnicity only serves to further isolate and marginalize one from the mainstream.

In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a Redneck, don't act like a Redneck. If you don't want to be treated like a cupcakeer, don't act like a cupcakeer. Behave properly according to our society's mores and you'll be less likely to be a victim of prejudice. Surely there will always be ignorant members of all races, willing to hate someone simply for the color of their skin. But that's the vast minority these days.

 

[Donovan]

Fucking A. There is no "black culture" or "Mexican Culture" or "Asian culture" in America. There is American culture. Promoting a different culture based on your race or ethnicity only serves to further isolate and marginalize one from the mainstream.

In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a Redneck, don't act like a Redneck. If you don't want to be treated like a cupcakeer, don't act like a cupcakeer. Behave properly according to our society's mores and you'll be less likely to be a victim of prejudice. Surely there will always be ignorant members of all races, willing to hate someone simply for the color of their skin. But that's the vast minority these days.

Isn't this somewhat akin to the theory that women wouldn't be raped as often if they didn't act slutty and wear tightfitting clothes? Suppose somebody feels like persecuting sports nuts and football fans? Where does that put you? The problem with dictating that people act like "mainstream society" is that no one can agree on who gets to set that parameter.

American culture is an Amalgam of myriad cultures, including black, asian, native American, European, and even Australian. Travel the country and you'll see what I mean. There IS NO ONE American culture. What Laker Girl calls American culture would mystify someone from Kansas, and vice versa. A New Yorker would be absolutely stymied by the accepted mainstream culture of genteel Georgia or rural Idaho. Ultra liberal Oregonians would rarely see eye-to-eye with Bible-belters in Mississippi.

 

[Tyrant]

My point exactly. Advertising doesn't mean squat, or my favorite beer would consistently get me laid by hot girls in bikinis...

Your point here was that the money taxpayers give the government belongs to the government, and that the government can spend it any way it pleases and merely has to present its reciepts, which you have not established at all.

For the purposes of this discussion, no.

"Taxes are the fees citizens pay for the right to be governed in the manner they have selected for themselves."

Are you sure?

That would bore everyone out of the thread. The short version: people "select" how they wish to be governed by voting-for or against their favorite lawmaker, and for or against a proposed tax amendment (school tax hikes are a good example). Once the votes are in, the lawmaker (whose salary is paid for in part via collected taxes) helps to govern the people of the nation by attempting to gather some of the collected tax money for his or her own constituents. In this way we are "choosing" the way we are governed. The recent elections are a dramatic example of this I think.

I don't think you're using the proper term here: Democracy is the prevalent form of government. The people select those who will vote (Or claim to) the way they want them to, that's to say, how the candidate will manage the resources which the people willingly give them.

This is what I have been saying all along, with the difference that if a tax payment is required by law, as taxes are, then it is NOT in fact your money once it's gone. It's theirs, no matter how you want to squint at it in theory.

If it belonged to the government then explain the public furor over say, the Iran-Contra scandal.


Laws requiring people to pay the taxes only exist because the people permit them to exist. If there were a 'Messenger Tax' in which 1 cent out of every $100 were given to me, even if required by law, I don't think it would last very long.

Sure, Al Capone comes to mind. We're arguing semantics here. The vast majority of Americans pay income tax or face substantial penalties up to and including jail time.

Because they aren't aware that it's illegal, and can't quite argue their way out of it if they have a guilty mind.

And NO ONE by your own admission is totally exempt from any sort of tax. Becoming self sufficient, while decidedly utopian and almost communistic, would be impossible in reality. Why? Because self-sufficient, autonomous communities make the Government nervous. Ask those Branch Davidians how that works out when the Government gets nervous...

And missmanners doesn't count. She's Amish.

Right.

 

[Laker_Girl]

Jesus fuck this has devolved into the dumbest, most ill-informed thread on the planet. I can't even muster up the will to point out how very, very fucking wrong Sarek, Dono, and of course Messenger are and I just had five hours sleep and a turkey sandwich.

But Sarek, for you a special acknowledgement, that quote you ponied up is completely out of context. Furthermore, I would have to have some knowledge of "black cock" to extoll the virtues of it and I do not, brain trust. Think then type. I was clearly pointing out that I'm an equal opportunity dater.

 

[Tyrant]

Jesus fuck this has devolved into the dumbest, most ill-informed thread on the planet. I can't even muster up the will to point out how very, very fucking wrong Sarek, Dono, and of course Messenger are and I just had five hours sleep and a turkey sandwich.

I mentioned little about race, you stupid bint. The only reason people give you any attention whatsoever is because you're low-mouthed in addition to being obnoxious and uninformed. Please to konk your head against your moniter until that gets through.

 

[Grammour Boy]

Miss Manners:

Doesn't your employer, whom you do audits and investigations for, withhold taxes from your income? Or are you self-employed and are choosing to willfully not pay your taxes? If so, then you are flaunting the rest of the Americans that pay taxes which fund the roads on which you travel to get to work, not to mention not contributing for the municipal services such as the police and fire departments, and trash removal services, etc... from which you obviously benefit.

 

[Imperium]

American culture is an Amalgam of myriad cultures, including black, asian, native American, European, and even Australian. Travel the country and you'll see what I mean. There IS NO ONE American culture.

Nice post, but then you follow it up with:

A New Yorker would be absolutely stymied by the accepted mainstream culture of genteel Georgia or rural Idaho. Ultra liberal Oregonians would rarely see eye-to-eye with Bible-belters in Mississippi.

See the error in reasoning here?

 

[Grammour Boy]

To MM:

By not paying taxes you are also not contributing to your own national defense services such as missiles and armies and navy ships protecting you from the weapons of mass destruction of Saddam and Kim Jong Il.

In other words, you're getting a free ride on the tax dollars of the other American citizens that pay taxes.

 

[Friday]

Not true, Messe. I like Laker_Girl, witnessed by the bazillions of forwards I get from her weekly, and I don't block her ass. :lol:

She's a strong woman, who's not afraid of speaking her mind. As far as race is concerned, she's made it clear that it's not race that bugs her. It's how certain members of certain races choose to portray themselves.

 

[Tyrant]

Not true, Messe. I like Laker_Girl, witnessed by the bazillions of forwards I get from her weekly, and I don't block her ass. :lol:

She's a strong woman, who's not afraid of speaking her mind. As far as race is concerned, she's made it clear that it's not race that bugs her. It's how certain members of certain races choose to portray themselves.

If she's so emo over being caught in a blanket statement then I'd like to know why she lumped me in with a group as well. But it's nice that you're defending her, considering she can't muster up the will to do that herself.

 

[Sarek]

Jesus fuck this has devolved into the dumbest, most ill-informed thread on the planet. I can't even muster up the will to point out how very, very fucking wrong Sarek, Dono, and of course Messenger are and I just had five hours sleep and a turkey sandwich.

But Sarek, for you a special acknowledgement, that quote you ponied up is completely out of context. Furthermore, I would have to have some knowledge of "black cock" to extoll the virtues of it and I do not, brain trust. Think then type. I was clearly pointing out that I'm an equal opportunity dater.

Yeah, I think that was kind of the point behind the comment. And frankly, it doesn't change anything. It just means as far as you're concerned, blacks are cupcakeers. But you'd jump in bed with one as long he's a well to do cupcakeer.

 

[Donovan]

Nice post, but then you follow it up with:



See the error in reasoning here?

No. I did not say that America was a melting pot, I said that there was no single "American culture" as Laker Girl or Dick would like to have us believe. Each REGION borrows heavily from the ancestry and traditions of that REGION, to wit: in Los Angeles there is a heavy hispanic/Latino influence, while in New York City Italian, Jewish, Irish and Puerto Rican cultures tend to dominate more. My second statement was meant to illustrate the first by providing examples of how different segments of America have developed in to vastly differing cultures with widely varied ideals of what is "Normal" and "acceptable."

 

[missmanners]

And I still don't pay income taxes.


mm

 

[Donovan]

And I still don't pay income taxes.


mm

Mennonite.