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Laker_Girl leaves ShatteredCorpse

I just made a big quote for quote reply to Messenger but the goddamned machine logged me out and ate it: so here is a shortened version of my proof that 1. Taxes are legal and 2. They are collected by the government to pay for the workings of government. The money does not belong to the average citizen once it's paid, despite what idealists would like to think. An unpopular fact doesn't become less true by being unpopular.

US Constitution said:
Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
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That ought to cover it. That some people find loopholes or ways around paying taxes is irrelevant to my point. Notice that it does not say anywhere that the money collected in taxes still belongs to the people who pay it, just that they can't be taxed more than their fair share.
 
Donovan said:
I just made a big quote for quote reply to Messenger but the goddamned machine logged me out and ate it: so here is a shortened version of my proof that 1. Taxes are legal and 2. They are collected by the government to pay for the workings of government. The money does not belong to the average citizen once it's paid, despite what idealists would like to think. An unpopular fact doesn't become less true by being unpopular.



That ought to cover it. That some people find loopholes or ways around paying taxes is irrelevant to my point. Notice that it does not say anywhere that the money collected in taxes still belongs to the people who pay it, just that they can't be taxed more than their fair share.
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I'm supposed to be working.... but I have to give my 2 cents (insert witty tax remark about the 2 cents). That document says nothing about an income tax..... nor does it say "fair share" .... it says "shall be uniform". Income tax is anything BUT uniform.

Take a quick gander at the earlier document...

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the governed; that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, & to institute new Government, laying it's Foundation on such Principles, & organizing it's Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety & Happiness.
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(bold is mine)

And what was one of the main gripes of our wise founding fathers?

For imposing Taxes on us without our consent

The Revolution and initial government was not funded by taxes, it was funded by the rich and powerful men in the colonies. So why do you suppose the income tax is still around? Because somewhere along the line, the people who "run" this country moved even more away from the ideals of the founding fathers....

we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor.
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^^^ that somehow evolved into those who came into power, also wanted to keep their wealth.

Now I am 100% Capitalist, there isn't a socialist bone in my body. I dont want the wealth redistributed, I dont want the rich to have to become poor. The only uniform tax will be a national sales tax.

;)
mm
 
missmanners said:
I'm supposed to be working.... but I have to give my 2 cents (insert witty tax remark about the 2 cents). That document says nothing about an income tax..... nor does it say "fair share" .... it says "shall be uniform". Income tax is anything BUT uniform.
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Actually, in section 8 it says Congress has the right and power to levy taxes. It doesn't specify what kind, thereby leaving the door wide open for all sorts of taxes, including but not limited to income tax, property tax, gasoline tax, "sin"tax, etc. The other section about elected reps was a shorter version of what details a system for determining fair taxes based on population of a given state, and Representation according to those same statistics. This is the direct answer to the whole "taxation without representation" gripe you mention.

Take a quick gander at the earlier document...



(bold is mine)

And what was one of the main gripes of our wise founding fathers?

For imposing Taxes on us without our consent

The Revolution and initial government was not funded by taxes, it was funded by the rich and powerful men in the colonies. So why do you suppose the income tax is still around? Because somewhere along the line, the people who "run" this country moved even more away from the ideals of the founding fathers....
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You are correct in your notes on the Declaration of Independence. However, the reason income and other taxes became part of our country was not due to later corrupt influences, but due to what you just said: the original revolution was funded by wealthy men who wanted to keep that wealth. In the Articles of Confederation (our first "Constitution") there was little provision for taxation of the people. However, after a decade or so, people realized that no one wanted to continue funding the country and nothing was getting done or paid for. The states were complaining all over the place, and the founding fathers had to scrap the Articles in favor of the Constitution which allowed for "fair" taxation of all citizens. If not for that change, the fledgling democracy would have been a spectacular failure in a matter of a few years.

The Declaration of Independence was drafted 1776. The Constitution didn't exist until 1787 and wasn't ratified for 2 more years after that. That's 13 years without a workable form of taxation to support the government. That's why the section I pasted is so detailed as to what gets paid for and by whom.

^^^ that somehow evolved into those who came into power, also wanted to keep their wealth.

Now I am 100% Capitalist, there isn't a socialist bone in my body. I dont want the wealth redistributed, I dont want the rich to have to become poor. The only uniform tax will be a national sales tax.
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Actually that's pretty much always the way it's been, and the very reason we rebelled in the first place. We wanted to keep our money at home. It was just when people found out how expensive the upkeep was going to be that they began to rethink the whole "no taxation" stance.

My original point still stands: taxes belong to the Government once they are levied, and are used for the purpose of keeping the government functioning in all its various forms. The fact that we can complain and bitch and argue is a nice benefit to the democratic process, but it doesn't mean we get any of that money back unless the government chooses to give it to us.
 
Donovan said:
No. I did not say that America was a melting pot, I said that there was no single "American culture" as Laker Girl or Dick would like to have us believe. Each REGION borrows heavily from the ancestry and traditions of that REGION, to wit: in Los Angeles there is a heavy hispanic/Latino influence, while in New York City Italian, Jewish, Irish and Puerto Rican cultures tend to dominate more. My second statement was meant to illustrate the first by providing examples of how different segments of America have developed in to vastly differing cultures with widely varied ideals of what is "Normal" and "acceptable."
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WTF? TK logs you out if you don't type fast enough? BULLSHIT!

I will summarize then.

You stated that there are such things as "Black culture", "Asian Culture", and most notably "European and Australian" cultures. This behooves that you accept the idea of an American culture. Too bad we do not have an anthropologist in the house; however, there are many cultures here in America but they influence and are influenced by other cultures here and whatever 'original' American culture there is. They become "Americanized." The totality of all these americanized cultures are indeed American. Culture is like a tree, it has many branches.
The same reasoning goes with the fact there is no one "black culture" or "asian culture" or for that matter "European culture" unless you are defining in such a way that you are describing common themes amongst a set of cultures; i.e., Western culture.
What you are really arguing about are sub-cultures.
 
Donovan said:
My original point still stands: taxes belong to the Government once they are levied, and are used for the purpose of keeping the government functioning in all its various forms. The fact that we can complain and bitch and argue is a nice benefit to the democratic process, but it doesn't mean we get any of that money back unless the government chooses to give it to us.
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There is something about this statement that just isn't quite right. It will come to me...

;)
mm
 
I only asked if it were yours. It has to be someone's. You needn't get all huffy about it.
 
stfu.jpg
 
Grammour Boy said:
And they say TK is a cesspool of know-nothing and a playground for idiots and assholes. They obviously haven't read this thread. ;)
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Only me because I'm slumming ;)
 
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