You'll know EVERYTHING then!
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Star Trek 12 news/countdown thread
- Thread starter CaptainWacky
- Start date
You'll know EVERYTHING then!
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Yes, generally after viewing a movie one tends to know everything about it. Thanks for pointing that out.
hpquestion:Click & read at your own discretion & choice. MAJOR SPOILERS at this link:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=209857&page=80
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=209857&page=80
Click'n'read THIS ALSO of your own choosing, due to SPOILERS. SB's STiD thread:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...rkness-here-be-spoilers.258218/#post-10718570
SB's, in a nutshell, Diet TrekBBS or TrekBBS Lite!
http://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...rkness-here-be-spoilers.258218/#post-10718570
SB's, in a nutshell, Diet TrekBBS or TrekBBS Lite!
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
I have opinions on Star Trek Into Darkness.
What a shame.
So, the first scene in this film is Kirk and McCoy investigating an undeveloped alien planet, while Spock tries to save them from dying to a volcano, all without violating the Prime Directive (even thought saving them is violating the prime directive), and Kirk has fucked it up and pissed off the natives. They're doing what Star Trek should be doing - seeking out new life and new civilizations - except fucking it up.
This scene is an excellent microcosm for the entire film.
So I spent most of this film thinking "This is really dumb". The pacing is all over the place, the story is too. Kirk spends most of this film being an asshole, something which Pike correctly calls him out for. But then we get a few more scenes of a character going "No Kirk don't be an asshole" and Kirk going "I'LL DO WHAT I WANT OKAY", and I just started to dislike Kirk at that point. And the thing is I don't know if the film is supposed to want me to feel like this or not, it doesn't say.
Like, the film doesn't know how seriously it wants us to take it. It's talking about terrorist attacks and Spock trying to understand death, and at the same time most of the film seems to be played for laughs. Spock's emotionless attitude - played for laughs. The Spock/Uhura relationship - played for laughs. Literally everything Scotty did in the entire film - played for laughs. Dr. McCoy and his WACKY MEDICAL GIZMOS - played for laughs.
How am I supposed to take your characters and plot seriously if the film doesn't?
But whatever, it looked pretty, the action scenes were pretty fucking dumb and Benedict Cumberbatch did some good acting.
But then he's like "Yeah I'm Khan". Sorry, what? You're Khan? You're the ASIAN CHARACTER Khan Noonian fucking Singh?! Like this isn't just a "well it doesn't match up with TOS canon canon canon" thing, this is a "casted a white actor to play what should have been a non-white role Hollywood whitewashing" thing. They couldn't make it literally any other member of the Botany Bay? Really? Fuck. FUCK.
But whatever, it was stupid but well made, whatever.
Until Kirk went into the reactor room. Fuck. You're going to do it, aren't you? You're going to take the death scene from Wrath of Khan.
See, when Spock died in Wrath of Khan it was an amazing finish to the character arcs in that film. It was about both Kirk and Spock reacting to a no-win scenario, and it was about Kirk accepting both his own mortality and the mortality of the people he commands.
When Kirk dies here, in LITERALLY THE SAME WAY, what's it for? What does it mean? Nothing, aside from "Hey remember Wrath of Khan?". They had no idea why Spock's death worked. They just redid it in a soulless, empty way. This was the point I gave up.
Then Spock went "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN". Fuck you. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. "Hey remember this over exaggerated piece of Star Trek pop culture, well here it is!!!!". FUCK. Again, a total misunderstanding of what made that moment work, and instead just a hollow repeat of it.
So the Enterprise might be destroyed, like in Star Trek III. But unlike in Star Trek III, there was really no reason for it. And also unlike Star Trek III, they don't have the balls to actually do it.
So then Spock and Sherlock have an overlong fight, and there's that shot of Kirk's body with Doctor McCoy looking at it and... oh. Fuck you. FUCK YOU.
They undo Kirk's death. Like it never happened. They totally rob any sort of meaning that his death had (which wasn't very much!). When Spock died it mattered, it meant there was a cost to Kirk's actions in the film. Here there is no cost, everything's fine, nothing matters.
So the end of the film it literally the end of the first film. They're all "Hey we're like The Original Series now, lets go explore!", exactly like the last film. Which means that no development has actually happened at all during this film. Nothing that happened mattered.
What was Kirk's arc in this film? He goes from being (rightly) totally unprepared for Command, then he dies, then...? He's okay? There's no development. The film doesn't really care at that point.
And it's such a shame. When they rebooted the franchise in the last film it meant they could go anywhere with this film. Literally anything. But they didn't. They redid things Trek has already done much better, and gave us nothing new. Bad guy. Superpower ship. Starfleet academy in danger.
Such a shame.
So, the first scene in this film is Kirk and McCoy investigating an undeveloped alien planet, while Spock tries to save them from dying to a volcano, all without violating the Prime Directive (even thought saving them is violating the prime directive), and Kirk has fucked it up and pissed off the natives. They're doing what Star Trek should be doing - seeking out new life and new civilizations - except fucking it up.
This scene is an excellent microcosm for the entire film.
So I spent most of this film thinking "This is really dumb". The pacing is all over the place, the story is too. Kirk spends most of this film being an asshole, something which Pike correctly calls him out for. But then we get a few more scenes of a character going "No Kirk don't be an asshole" and Kirk going "I'LL DO WHAT I WANT OKAY", and I just started to dislike Kirk at that point. And the thing is I don't know if the film is supposed to want me to feel like this or not, it doesn't say.
Like, the film doesn't know how seriously it wants us to take it. It's talking about terrorist attacks and Spock trying to understand death, and at the same time most of the film seems to be played for laughs. Spock's emotionless attitude - played for laughs. The Spock/Uhura relationship - played for laughs. Literally everything Scotty did in the entire film - played for laughs. Dr. McCoy and his WACKY MEDICAL GIZMOS - played for laughs.
How am I supposed to take your characters and plot seriously if the film doesn't?
But whatever, it looked pretty, the action scenes were pretty fucking dumb and Benedict Cumberbatch did some good acting.
But then he's like "Yeah I'm Khan". Sorry, what? You're Khan? You're the ASIAN CHARACTER Khan Noonian fucking Singh?! Like this isn't just a "well it doesn't match up with TOS canon canon canon" thing, this is a "casted a white actor to play what should have been a non-white role Hollywood whitewashing" thing. They couldn't make it literally any other member of the Botany Bay? Really? Fuck. FUCK.
But whatever, it was stupid but well made, whatever.
Until Kirk went into the reactor room. Fuck. You're going to do it, aren't you? You're going to take the death scene from Wrath of Khan.
See, when Spock died in Wrath of Khan it was an amazing finish to the character arcs in that film. It was about both Kirk and Spock reacting to a no-win scenario, and it was about Kirk accepting both his own mortality and the mortality of the people he commands.
When Kirk dies here, in LITERALLY THE SAME WAY, what's it for? What does it mean? Nothing, aside from "Hey remember Wrath of Khan?". They had no idea why Spock's death worked. They just redid it in a soulless, empty way. This was the point I gave up.
Then Spock went "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN". Fuck you. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. "Hey remember this over exaggerated piece of Star Trek pop culture, well here it is!!!!". FUCK. Again, a total misunderstanding of what made that moment work, and instead just a hollow repeat of it.
So the Enterprise might be destroyed, like in Star Trek III. But unlike in Star Trek III, there was really no reason for it. And also unlike Star Trek III, they don't have the balls to actually do it.
So then Spock and Sherlock have an overlong fight, and there's that shot of Kirk's body with Doctor McCoy looking at it and... oh. Fuck you. FUCK YOU.
They undo Kirk's death. Like it never happened. They totally rob any sort of meaning that his death had (which wasn't very much!). When Spock died it mattered, it meant there was a cost to Kirk's actions in the film. Here there is no cost, everything's fine, nothing matters.
So the end of the film it literally the end of the first film. They're all "Hey we're like The Original Series now, lets go explore!", exactly like the last film. Which means that no development has actually happened at all during this film. Nothing that happened mattered.
What was Kirk's arc in this film? He goes from being (rightly) totally unprepared for Command, then he dies, then...? He's okay? There's no development. The film doesn't really care at that point.
And it's such a shame. When they rebooted the franchise in the last film it meant they could go anywhere with this film. Literally anything. But they didn't. They redid things Trek has already done much better, and gave us nothing new. Bad guy. Superpower ship. Starfleet academy in danger.
Such a shame.
Fuddlemiff
Is this real life?
I really liked it. I have big reservations, but the overall product was so fun that I can forgive it a hell of a lot. I'll post proper thoughts in a bit.
Loktar
Internet God
That all depends on if I win them from the local radio station. I have about 20 points/entries in so far.
whisky
Boobie inspector
I like it, I liked the more subtle nods, like
, not so much the wholesale
, still the acting was good in it.
Did anyone else think...
the ship being captured in the "Mudd Incident"
ripping off of the end of WOK
Did anyone else think...
that given the radiation Kirk suffered, and the massive kick in the stomach Carol got, that neither of them would now be capable of having kids?
Mind you, by the sound of it that role might now be taken by Nurse Chapel.
Mind you, by the sound of it that role might now be taken by Nurse Chapel.
Fuddlemiff
Is this real life?
Slightly different, since all iterations of the Joker look like those alien natives from the beginning of ST:ID. 
I'm still cogitating after seeing it last night. I did really, really enjoy it and I finally understand what people mean when they describe a movie as a "romp". It was very rompy indeed, with a cast that riffed off eachother seamlessly, clever dialogue, some inventive action sequences and epic visuals.
I'm still cogitating after seeing it last night. I did really, really enjoy it and I finally understand what people mean when they describe a movie as a "romp". It was very rompy indeed, with a cast that riffed off eachother seamlessly, clever dialogue, some inventive action sequences and epic visuals.
But the pacing was really weird. It wasn't that there were any extended slow parts or any sections that had too much action, and it wasn't even that it took too long to get into the story... I guess it just felt unfocussed. As soon as you thought you knew where all the pieces were laid out and the final push toward the climax had begun, everything would stop and a new plot device would be introduced. I expect for some this made the film feel very drawn out. But for anyone who enjoyed it it was more of a peculiarity than an annoyance.
I have two main niggles. One is Kirk's death. I can see the temptation to do it, but it was unnecessary, it didn't add anything, and the resolution was so clearly signposted that you knew someone was going to die and be revived about 30 minutes before it happened. Whether you liked the lifting of the lines and mouthing along to "you'll flood the whole compartment!" comes down to personal preferences. I thought they went too far.
The other niggle is Khan. I can understand them wanting to use his reputation, as it worked as a shorthand to suggest how much of a threat he was, but again it was unnecessary. They could have simply made him one of Khan's henchmen and it would've worked as well, if not even better. A sort of "if this is what one of Khan's underlings could do, just imagine what the man himself is capable of" situation. Oh well, what's done is done.
Of course Cumberbatch is fantastic and I know they had a lot of Hispanic and other non-pale British people test out for the role, so I don't feel it's somehow racist that they picked someone who's being pretty much universally lauded as one of the greatest living actors. For right or wrong they'd written a story with Khan, and they found an amazing performer to play him. But good luck for anyone trying to reconcile this with canon.
I largely agree with Tomtrek about the character development, though there was some effort made. Kirk learns about taking responsibility for his actions, to an extent. He starts the movie with a typical gung ho attitude, covering up his mistakes in official records, boasting about how he's never lost a crewmember and that in any case, the ends justified the means, and by the end he has seen first hand the consequences of his actions; he's watched crew members die, he's begged for Khan to accept his sole responsibility for the Enterprise's actions and he's apologised to his crew when he thinks he's got them all killed. This is unfortunately undermined to a great extent by his death and revival, which come at no price whatsoever and actually go to underscore his initial attitude of not accepting the no win situation. But that development is still in there, so I think it should be acknowledged.
And there's development, or at the very least, some explanation of Spock, which I really liked. Using Uhura as a window into his thoughts works well. It was cool to see him using a mind meld as well as the unsuccessful nerve pinch against Khan. I'm curious what thoughts he was sending during the meld, or what he picked up from it. Anyway, it's great that there are still new things we can learn about the character, things which I think apply to both versions.
Pike's death was really unexpected, but I thought it was very well acted. We're so used to seeing heroic deaths where people simply close their eyes as if they're going to sleep, so it was refreshing to see someone who looked terrified and angry and all the other emotions Spock described. The only question with that scene was why exactly Spock melded. At first I thought it was to preserve Pike's memories/katra, or to give comfort that couldn't be expressed in words. But people online seem to think Spock was doing it out of curiosity, and essentially intruded on Pike's last moments (or mind raped, to use their parlance).
Leonard Nimoy's cameo was totally unexpected and was the icing on the fan service cake. A non-fan friend said he thought it was lame that the new guys just call up Spock 'whenever they need help', but it was at least shown that Spock was making an exception this one time. And if they hadn't called him up everyone would be calling it a 'plot hole'.
The main questions at the end are why no one seems too bothered that half of San Francisco got flattened resulting in thousands of deaths and why no one's excited that they basically have an endless supply of a cure-all substance. Hey, you don't even have to worry about the recipient's blood type! The latter question is at least something that's come up in multiple Trek episodes over the years, so they're in good company leaving that doozy hanging.
Anyway, I liked it. But I hope now they have Khan out of their system they'll do a completely original story.
I have two main niggles. One is Kirk's death. I can see the temptation to do it, but it was unnecessary, it didn't add anything, and the resolution was so clearly signposted that you knew someone was going to die and be revived about 30 minutes before it happened. Whether you liked the lifting of the lines and mouthing along to "you'll flood the whole compartment!" comes down to personal preferences. I thought they went too far.
The other niggle is Khan. I can understand them wanting to use his reputation, as it worked as a shorthand to suggest how much of a threat he was, but again it was unnecessary. They could have simply made him one of Khan's henchmen and it would've worked as well, if not even better. A sort of "if this is what one of Khan's underlings could do, just imagine what the man himself is capable of" situation. Oh well, what's done is done.
Of course Cumberbatch is fantastic and I know they had a lot of Hispanic and other non-pale British people test out for the role, so I don't feel it's somehow racist that they picked someone who's being pretty much universally lauded as one of the greatest living actors. For right or wrong they'd written a story with Khan, and they found an amazing performer to play him. But good luck for anyone trying to reconcile this with canon.
I largely agree with Tomtrek about the character development, though there was some effort made. Kirk learns about taking responsibility for his actions, to an extent. He starts the movie with a typical gung ho attitude, covering up his mistakes in official records, boasting about how he's never lost a crewmember and that in any case, the ends justified the means, and by the end he has seen first hand the consequences of his actions; he's watched crew members die, he's begged for Khan to accept his sole responsibility for the Enterprise's actions and he's apologised to his crew when he thinks he's got them all killed. This is unfortunately undermined to a great extent by his death and revival, which come at no price whatsoever and actually go to underscore his initial attitude of not accepting the no win situation. But that development is still in there, so I think it should be acknowledged.
And there's development, or at the very least, some explanation of Spock, which I really liked. Using Uhura as a window into his thoughts works well. It was cool to see him using a mind meld as well as the unsuccessful nerve pinch against Khan. I'm curious what thoughts he was sending during the meld, or what he picked up from it. Anyway, it's great that there are still new things we can learn about the character, things which I think apply to both versions.
Pike's death was really unexpected, but I thought it was very well acted. We're so used to seeing heroic deaths where people simply close their eyes as if they're going to sleep, so it was refreshing to see someone who looked terrified and angry and all the other emotions Spock described. The only question with that scene was why exactly Spock melded. At first I thought it was to preserve Pike's memories/katra, or to give comfort that couldn't be expressed in words. But people online seem to think Spock was doing it out of curiosity, and essentially intruded on Pike's last moments (or mind raped, to use their parlance).
Leonard Nimoy's cameo was totally unexpected and was the icing on the fan service cake. A non-fan friend said he thought it was lame that the new guys just call up Spock 'whenever they need help', but it was at least shown that Spock was making an exception this one time. And if they hadn't called him up everyone would be calling it a 'plot hole'.
The main questions at the end are why no one seems too bothered that half of San Francisco got flattened resulting in thousands of deaths and why no one's excited that they basically have an endless supply of a cure-all substance. Hey, you don't even have to worry about the recipient's blood type! The latter question is at least something that's come up in multiple Trek episodes over the years, so they're in good company leaving that doozy hanging.
Anyway, I liked it. But I hope now they have Khan out of their system they'll do a completely original story.
whisky
Boobie inspector
My take on the difference
Remember that natty google earth style thing Kirk was using, that identified everyone on the scene by their faces? I guess even top secret section 31 operatives get tagged on facebook!
In the 60s they couldnt even conceive of the computing power we have today, or the satalite coverage, even in the 80s when WOK was made, the same was true.
We live in an information age now, where even facebook of the 21st centuary can make a pretty good guess as to who is in your photo.
If you are going to have a spy who is capable of going undercover, maybe you change his face, his voice, and even his skin colour, so that he dosnt show up everywhere as that guy who used to run a quarter of the planet.
In the 60s they couldnt even conceive of the computing power we have today, or the satalite coverage, even in the 80s when WOK was made, the same was true.
We live in an information age now, where even facebook of the 21st centuary can make a pretty good guess as to who is in your photo.
If you are going to have a spy who is capable of going undercover, maybe you change his face, his voice, and even his skin colour, so that he dosnt show up everywhere as that guy who used to run a quarter of the planet.
Fuddlemiff
Is this real life?
That's certainly feasible, supposing they could perform surgery on him without his skin constantly restoring itself. But you would still have to explain the British accent.