Understanding Anti-Semitism: Why Do People Dislike Jews?

[Anubis]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a Star of David instead of the symbols? That way, more people would be informed, and I wouldn't have to rant and make strawmen and problems out of nothing.


Also . . .

Whenever someone purchases something kosher, they should be given the choice of paying for it or not. Sort of like those red cross donations. They could have a small card like my Keyfood club card, and have it scanned to pay the tax.

Seems fair to me. This way, everyone wins.

Of course, the certification companies would probably find a way to make me pay for the implementation of such a system, since the burden of showing that I do not want to eat kosher food is fallaciously on me.

 

[TJHairball]

I cut and pasted numbers from various timespans. My mistake.

Actually, most of the figures (the $20M, the $6B, and the $1 in $30) come from the same timespan.

It is not the only basis, as that is not the case.

So what's your basis for making such an assumption? "Everybody must not know."

Label-examining habits? Do I look like a fucking lawyer that reads fine print? I'm hungry, and I'm not interested in wading through cans of kosher pea soup to find the one that best describes me as a person.

If you're shopping at the grocery store while hungry, that's a mistake right there.

Newsweek, 23-Mar-1992, p. 49.

Note that it's a frigging nonprofit organization. $700,000 in revenues to run around to a large number of steel mills, conduct a lobbying campaign, etc etc? Peanuts.

Nopers.

Yeppers. Cost is low. Cost is very low. And they clearly aren't making money hand-over-fist... most are even nonprofits.

Sure. If everyone in the US gave me a penny, I would have millions. And I could hide that from the IRS by saying I only recieved pennies.

Well, if you're a nonprofit organization and manage to either spend it on business or put it into the organization's accounts, the IRS won't be too harsh on ya.

I thought the product manufacturers wanted to expand there consumer base a bit with kosher certifications. Why the lobbying? How very odd.

Why not? They have an interest, they lobby for it. If it were a commercial venture, that would be referred to as "marketing" it.

Of course it's not a monopoly. There are plenty of Kosher certification companies out there.

See? It's not so hard to admit it.

There is a cost added to the brand name products I prefer consuming, which serves no purpose for the majority of the people purchasing said products. It is a tax.

So here we get to the meat of the argument. "The brand names I like have a cost added for being kosher!" Never mind that the cost is negligible; never mind that you could buy other brands.

In one corner, we have brand loyalty; in the other, you not wanting to have any pennies that you pay over the counter wind up as revenue for a Jewish nonprofit organization.

This is not difficult to understand. They didn't hand out 300 mil. I didn't suggest that, and I don't see how you could have inferred it.

I didn't. But you keep throwing these numbers ($300 mill, $6 billion) like they have some meaning in relation to money going into Jewish pockets. It doesn't.

"One reason that the kosher certification business, as it is practiced today, must be stopped is because it is a criminal activity that restrains trade and that sucks vast sums of money out of the economy, money that would be better spent in shortening waiting times for surgery, or in giving small towns safe drinking water, or in raising teacher salaries, or in filling highway potholes.

Another reason that the kosher certification business must be stopped is that its vast revenues can be expected to be invested in still other criminal activities, in corrupting the political and judicial processes, and in suppressing freedom of speech and of the press."

Translation:
"I think this penny-ante certification process, which is applied to a minority of products, actually has enormous costs for industry."
(It doesn't.)
"I think those Jews are making lots of money."
(They aren't. Not with kosher certification, anyway. Real money comes in other industries - jewelry, investment banking, etc etc.)
"I think they're up to something criminal that comes out of this."
(Complete hyperbole.)
"They'll start censoring the newspapers to twist the minds of the public."
(This has what to do with kosher?)

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a Star of David instead of the symbols? That way, more people would be informed, and I wouldn't have to rant and make strawmen and problems out of nothing.

Actually, the (U) and the (K) mean (as we've touched upon) slightly different things. In some cases, a word attached to that provides a world of meaning.

Why put a star of David on there? It's not like the products are being manufactured in Israel.

Whenever someone purchases something kosher, they should be given the choice of paying for it or not. Sort of like those red cross donations. They could have a small card like my Keyfood club card, and have it scanned to pay the tax.

Let's rephrase that. "I think people buying organic food should have the choice of paying for it to be organic or not."

It's part of the product, Chad. The manufacturer thought it was worth making kosher, and if you don't like that, go shop around or write them an angry letter.

And yet again... it's not a tax.

Of course, the certification companies would probably find a way to make me pay for the implementation of such a system, since the burden of showing that I do not want to eat kosher food is fallaciously on me.

Oh, so now the fact that things were manufactured using known ingredients and using separate equipment for different things is offensive to your palate? Stop the horses, boys! What's bad for you about things having been manufactured in a kosher sense?

 

[Anubis]

I must have struck a nerve.

So here we get to the meat of the argument. "The brand names I like have a cost added for being kosher!" Never mind that the cost is negligible; never mind that you could buy other brands.

Since jack called Nabisco, I think I'll go out of my way to browse the Keyfood a bit the next time I'm there.

In one corner, we have brand loyalty; in the other, you not wanting to have any pennies that you pay over the counter wind up as revenue for a Jewish nonprofit organization.

Precisely.

I didn't. But you keep throwing these numbers ($300 mill, $6 billion) like they have some meaning in relation to money going into Jewish pockets. It doesn't.

Like they have some meaning in relation to money going into Jewish pockets? Did individual Jews make $300 mil? I doubt it.

Translation:
"I think this penny-ante certification process, which is applied to a minority of products, actually has enormous costs for industry."
(It doesn't.)
"I think those Jews are making lots of money."
(They aren't. Not with kosher certification, anyway. Real money comes in other industries - jewelry, investment banking, etc etc.)
"I think they're up to something criminal that comes out of this."
(Complete hyperbole.)
"They'll start censoring the newspapers to twist the minds of the public."
(This has what to do with kosher?)

lol

Actually, the (U) and the (K) mean (as we've touched upon) slightly different things. In some cases, a word attached to that provides a world of meaning.

So, their presence is in no way related to the food being kosher?

Why put a star of David on there? It's not like the products are being manufactured in Israel.

Are you gonna stand for that, jack?

Let's rephrase that. "I think people buying organic food should have the choice of paying for it to be organic or not."

It should reflect a demand for organic food. If it is indeed better, then people should be informed of it. Then the demand would increase.

It's part of the product, Chad. The manufacturer thought it was worth making kosher, and if you don't like that, go shop around or write them an angry letter.

Not yet. I'll think wait until more people are aware of it, then we'll all write a million angry letters.

And who is this person that refers to me as Chad like were best friends?

And yet again... it's not a tax.

Yes, it is.

Oh, so now the fact that things were manufactured using known ingredients and using separate equipment for different things is offensive to your palate? Stop the horses, boys! What's bad for you about things having been manufactured in a kosher sense?

Totally irrelavant. But since you ask, my neo-nazi-satanism says I shouldn't eat kosher food.

 

[The Question]

Yes Chad, complaints about taxation without representation first off misrepresent an authentic payment for an authentic service.

Except that it's a service only 2% of the market wants, a service which 98% of the market pays for, whether it wants it or not.

So...labeling it a "tax" is not only incorrect, it's inflammatory. It creates an argument out of nothing. That would make it a Straw Man by definition. It's not a "tax", so define it properly, and we can argue those merits.

Actually, that's not what a Strawman is. A Strawman is method of deceptive debating in which one distorts his opponent's argument in such a way that he can easily defeat the distortion without actually addressing his opponent's real argument. This is usually done in debates involving an audience, and is done with the exclusive purpose of persuading the audience, not the opponent.

(See: WordInterrupted, Imperium, et al.)

 

[TJHairball]

Precisely.

Well, forgive me, but I think brand loyalty is a pretty crappy reason to complain.

So, their presence is in no way related to the food being kosher?

It is related, of course. One means unsupervised, and the other supervised, correct?

It should reflect a demand for organic food. If it is indeed better, then people should be informed of it. Then the demand would increase.

Ya, but if you go buy it, why should you get a special discount for not caring that it's organic? Think about it that way. The accounting simply doesn't work that way - there's no particular amount that you're necessarily paying extra on a kosher item. A manufacturer might chip in a few thousand for certification one day, but grocery stores might not change the retail price any. Or they could take it as a convenient time to bump up the price by more than any transmitted price hike thanks to kosher costs. Percentage markups are a pain.

Not yet. I'll think wait until more people are aware of it, then we'll all write a million angry letters.

I don't think you'll get anywhere if you wait for a million. Angry letters usually start in a trickle anyway. Tell them you're taking your business elsewhere if they don't start offering non-kosher ketchup.

Yes, it is.

No it isn't. Nyah.

Totally irrelavant. But since you ask, my neo-nazi-satanism says I shouldn't eat kosher food.

Bummer, man. I recommend playing the satanism rather than neo-nazi card when you write letters - that's a religion card, after all, and a bit more sympathetic these days.

 

[Anubis]

Well, forgive me, but I think brand loyalty is a pretty crappy reason to complain.

It's not the reason I'm complaining. And if it were? If Coca-cola, which I prefer to Pepsi, became kosher?

Quick google . . .

lol

It already is:

Who certifies that your products are kosher?
For products certified as kosher, The Coca-Cola Company manufactures beverage syrups and concentrates under rabbinical supervision. As you may be aware, it is left to the discretion of each bottler to have the finished beverages certified by a rabbi. The rabbi's approval or certification is usually noted on the label.

http://www2.coca-cola.com/contactus/faq/labeling.html#4

What a fucking racket. Molecular religion, indeed.

Molecular religion


Human beings shed themselves into the air around them. They exhale organic molecules into the air. When they talk, a cloud of saliva droplets, some containing mouth cells, is sprayed in front of them. Their skin cells rub off and go floating in the wind. Thus, in a short trip on a crowded bus, it is conceivable that a passenger inhales billions of organic molecules, even hundreds of entire cells, which constitute body parts of the other passengers. Does any religion consider this a consumption of meat? Of course not! Does any religion consider this to be cannibalism? Not likely!

Or, a spectator sitting in the back row of an aquatic show ends up with a microscopic droplet of water in his mouth from the spray of the killer whale landing with a splash. The water in the pool is saturated with killer whale excretions and cells. Does any religion hold that spectator guilty of eating killer whale? Does the Orthodox Jew break kosher whenever he watches an aquatic show?

When we pet a cat, we end up with cat molecules in our mouth — so does an Orthodox Jew break kosher by petting a cat? When we wear a mink coat, we end up with mink molecules in our mouth — so does an Orthodox Jew break kosher by wearing mink? Examples in this vein can be multiplied endlessly.

Reflection on the nature of the invisible-to-the-naked-eye world which modern science has demonstrated the existence of forces us to the conclusion that religious observance was never intended to function at a microscopic level, that religious injunctions do not apply to stray molecules, that dietary laws are silent on the subject of the organic soup in which every human being is immersed. No religion concerns itself with prohibiting absorption into our bodies of substances in amounts so minuscule as to be detectable only in a sophisticated laboratory.

A hypothesis that cries out to be considered, then, is that when a religion does begin to be concerned with stray molecules, begins one might say to show a preoccupation with stray molecules, then that religion is in the process of being hijacked by extortionists.

http://www.ukar.org/tax04.html

It is related, of course. One means unsupervised, and the other supervised, correct?

I didn't ask for a crash course in foreign language.

Ya, but if you go buy it, why should you get a special discount for not caring that it's organic?

Your fallacies are starting to fade. No special discount. It costs more to bring organic foods to the market.

Think about it that way. The accounting simply doesn't work that way - there's no particular amount that you're necessarily paying extra on a kosher item. A manufacturer might chip in a few thousand for certification one day, but grocery stores might not change the retail price any. Or they could take it as a convenient time to bump up the price by more than any transmitted price hike thanks to kosher costs. Percentage markups are a pain.

Once again, where did $300 million come from?

My question is not purely formal. It is not rhetorical. Its purpose is not to show astonishment. My question is a question. It is necessary to respond to it.

I don't think you'll get anywhere if you wait for a million. Angry letters usually start in a trickle anyway. Tell them you're taking your business elsewhere if they don't start offering non-kosher ketchup.

I think I'll inform people first, then we'll all take our torches and pitchforks and reclaim out Coca-cola.

No it isn't. Nyah.

Provide a source.

Bummer, man. I recommend playing the satanism rather than neo-nazi card when you write letters - that's a religion card, after all, and a bit more sympathetic these days.

:bill:

 

[The Question]

neo-nazi card

You know, I've heard just about enough of this "neo-Nazi" epithet leveled against anyone who refuses to sit down and shut up in the face of Jewish-related deception and usury.

If speaking one's mind in opposition to such things makes one a neo-Nazi, y'all are about to start rebuilding the Wehrmacht your own damn selves.

 

[jack]

I've never voiced that sentiment, in this thread or elsewhere. I realize you aren't directing it at me, I just hope you understand I'm fascinated by your interperetation of events, not repelled. I could give a shit what you think as it relates to me in RL, and I respect the hell out of you for your intelligence and chutzpah in being willing to unequivocally state your evidence.

I've learned a lot the last few days, and it broadens my perspective whenever I read a lot or learn a lot.

 

[proteon]

This is the most interesting thread I have read all year. You people know your shit. I haven't had time to read all of page 2 though and I wont' have virtually anything to add except this: am I the only one who also thinks we've never set foot on the moon?

 

[Anubis]

Yes, because if you look through a telescope, you can spot the little (U) crater.

 

[proteon]

Alright I read it all. I didn't see the video though.

In Feb of 2000 my little life changed during lunch we some dudes I worked with claimed we'd never been to the moon but that we'd pretended to so that the USSR would blow it's wad on space programs. I didn't' believe it. An hour later with the Internet at my fingertips I did. We've never been to the fucking moon. Never not for a moment. So anyway with that being said:

I as a non Jew will never be able to view the Holocaust the same way again. Jack and TJHairball you guys are defending your arguments with petty insults and ignoring a) legitimate logic and b) every logical principal The Question has put down basically. I don't blame you because you probably went into this certain of yourselves and though you aren't going to admit it for a second, now you're thinking. Now your like WTF if he's right? In terms of rational argument and sources The Question and Chardarnook have won my inclination. I'm not saying that I now believe it never happened but I now realize there is not only a huge amount of evidence for this to be possible, but motive as well. It's also clear as to why this is not openly debated; it's historically recorded as fact and if you mention otherwise you are a Witch. Torches - that kind of thing.

The thing that stands out to me about the U symbol nobody has hit on - it's a religion issue. While I understand we participate in freedom of religion, I do not feel in any way that the companies whose products are bearing the U have made any attempt beyond a subtle symbol whose meaning has escaped me my entire life up until today - to tell me this food has been blessed in the manner of the religion of Juddaism. I say again - I'm not Jewish. Does that mean I can't eat Jewish food? No, but wtf kind of argument is "so Jewish food isn't good enough for you?" I want goddamn Buddhist food. Show me the pickles with the secret Buddhism logo and those will be my pickles. Then I will show people and say "see these pickles? These fuckers are Buddhist!" (note that the only thing you guys are comparing this Kosher food to is Organic food and Organic isn't a even a religion. What about saying prayer in school argh!! If we all suddenly found out there were hidden crucifixes inside 98% of sneakers bought in the US and you suddenly tore up the tongue and THERE IT WAS! Wouldn't that seem fucked up? Sure it would! It should because it is fucked up. And I agree with Chardarnook here we are talking about a lot of money here. Billions of dollars. Going to the folks who hide tiny crucifixes in sneakers.

That's how I read all this anyway.

 

[Anubis]

Pardon my earlier sarcasm.

I don't know about the moon thing, although I have read of of claims and counterclaims.

You made some good points, some which I wouldn't have thought to put forward. The more people are involved, the better both sides of the discussion can be presented.

 

[The Question]

What moral aspect? What problem?

Well, the moral question of levying a cost to 100% of consumers for a religious ritual which only 2% of consumers are certain to be aware of and create a demand for? How about that one? Let's change up the scenario just very, very slightly and see if you still think there's nothing objectionable about it:

What if it weren't Kosher slaughter being performed on tomatoes and tinfoil ('cause you know how important it is to make sure utmost cleanliness is observed when slaughtering tinfoil, right?) What if it were Catholic priests blessing our food products with holy water and sacrament?

Never mind that you're not Catholic. Never mind that maybe you find the practice inappropriate or offensive on the basis that you don't share their religious beliefs, but do you really feel it's appropriate that you should have to pay for a religion you don't subscribe to to "certify" 75%, 50% or even just 25% of the food you eat, let alone household items you don't eat (unless you're a raving lunatic)?

I do believe I've seen you complain, at least once, that the U.S. is forcing its culture on the Middle East, so how can you defend a group which, by an admittedly more subtle means, forces its religion on the rest of us? How is it you see a moral dilemma with one version of cultural conversion, but not another?

There is no problem, Chad, you're trying to make one up where it doesn't exist.

Well, would you mind bulling me some more shit, there, son? 'Cause it ain't quite up to my knees yet.

 

[TJHairball]

It's not the reason I'm complaining.

If it's not, what prevents you from switching to non-kosher cheap-ass small-name generic brands?

And if it were? If Coca-cola, which I prefer to Pepsi, became kosher?

So what?

I didn't ask for a crash course in foreign language.

(U) and (K) aren't even words. They don't represent words that you're unfamiliar with, either.

Your fallacies are starting to fade. No special discount. It costs more to bring organic foods to the market.

And - whether you care or not - it costs a very tiny fraction of a cent more to bring kosher products to market, which may or may not even be reflected in the price.

Once again, where did $300 million come from?

Gross Oreo sales. Not any fee, not any cost, gross Oreo sales.

Provide a source.

Dictionary.com defines "tax" with the following noun forms:
1. A contribution for the support of a government required of persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that government. Nope, not levied by a government, not required of a group or person.
2. A fee or dues levied on the members of an organization to meet its expenses. Nope, not levied by an organization on its members.
3. A burdensome or excessive demand; a strain. A few thousandths of a cent or so on perhaps 10% of packaged products... not excessive, not burdensome, not a strain.
In legalese:
1 : to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs of an action in court) Nothing to do with this, either.

Very clearly, it's not a tax.

 

[TJHairball]

You know, I've heard just about enough of this "neo-Nazi" epithet leveled against anyone who refuses to sit down and shut up in the face of Jewish-related deception and usury.

If speaking one's mind in opposition to such things makes one a neo-Nazi, y'all are about to start rebuilding the Wehrmacht your own damn selves.

Did I call Chad a neo-nazi? No, he did. I advised him that people generally don't view playing that card as a very sympathetic option. Usually, if you describe yourself as such, people reading letters of complaint just ball them up and pitch 'em out the window.

 

[TJHairball]

Well, the moral question of levying a cost to 100% of consumers for a religious ritual which only 2% of consumers are certain to be aware of and create a demand for?

Except it's not 100%. Run it past again. It's a certification, generally not actually involving any religious rituals (just process certifications), which costs next to nothing, and which many businesses have deemed worthwhile to add to their product in order to reach an additional ~3% of the population.

How about that one? Let's change up the scenario just very, very slightly and see if you still think there's nothing objectionable about it:

What if it weren't Kosher slaughter being performed on tomatoes and tinfoil ('cause you know how important it is to make sure utmost cleanliness is observed when slaughtering tinfoil, right?) What if it were Catholic priests blessing our food products with holy water and sacrament?

Never mind that you're not Catholic. Never mind that maybe you find the practice inappropriate or offensive on the basis that you don't share their religious beliefs, but do you really feel it's appropriate that you should have to pay for a religion you don't subscribe to to "certify" 75%, 50% or even just 25% of the food you eat, let alone household items you don't eat (unless you're a raving lunatic)?

Feel like shopping around? Shop around. Feel like complaining about the unnecessary cost? Complain about it. If it's an onerous cost, you may actually get somewhere. Let's face it - you live in a country with several million Jews. A reasonable number of manufacturers are going to be willing to pay $5,000 plus $1,000 per year on a product if it means that Jews will be willing to buy their product, just as a reasonable number of farmers are willing to take the expensive step of "going organic" to reach the organic foods market. Ideally, the price here doesn't change - enough additional units, in theory, would be sold to make up for the cost on the profit margin per unit... and let's face it, that's an investment that's paying off on the whole if any of the estimates about the "kosher market" are true. After all, Jews buy a lot more than $20 million in groceries every year in this country.

If Catholics had similar requirements, we'd probably be buying a lot of Catholic-certified junk. And if the cost increase was noticable, Catholics would be shopping in separate stores from the rest of us most of the time.

Whether or not that proves to increase their sales simply shows whether or not they made the "right" business decision from a profit motive.

I do believe I've seen you complain, at least once, that the U.S. is forcing its culture on the Middle East, so how can you defend a group which, by an admittedly more subtle means, forces its religion on the rest of us? How is it you see a moral dilemma with one version of cultural conversion, but not another?

If it were cultural conversion, someone would be working on getting rid of the pork-and-beans. They're not.

In what fashion is a little letter on a can and a fraction of a cent on the price tag of a product whose material contents remain the same a "cultural conversion"?

No conspiracy, no monopoly, no lucrative business, and no tax.

 

[jack]

Listen TJ, just give this some thought, both Chad and Dan are presenting their facts pretty straight forward, no one's called Jews kikes or suggested that there's something "wrong" with being jewish.

That has happened in other discussions I've had about this at a much lower level of discourse, so try to leave the emotions out of it.

Why argue about whether it's a jew tax or not? It's clearly a marketing tool used by the companies to nationally market these products. They wouldn't do it if it wasn't effective, and while the argument used to protest (taxation without representation) is clearly emotionally based, as opposed to being in reality as a valid argument, it's still very interesting how ubiquitous those symbols are. I'm Jewish and I didn't even realize the pervasiveness of it, so that was an eye opener for me.

I'm just fascinated by the perception that Jews only make up 2 percent of the population. I'll be verifying that statistic for myself in the next few days. But really TJ, if you are interested in what folks who don't believe there was a Holocaust think, I'm loving the chance to find out in a decent and friendly way, actually.

 

[TJHairball]

I as a non Jew will never be able to view the Holocaust the same way again. Jack and TJHairball you guys are defending your arguments with petty insults and ignoring a) legitimate logic and b) every logical principal The Question has put down basically.

I haven't really been arguing about the Holocaust in this thread yet, so that tells me you haven't been reading very carefully. I've been spending such time as I waste here debunking this "kosher tax" myth.

The thing that stands out to me about the U symbol nobody has hit on - it's a religion issue. While I understand we participate in freedom of religion, I do not feel in any way that the companies whose products are bearing the U have made any attempt beyond a subtle symbol whose meaning has escaped me my entire life up until today - to tell me this food has been blessed in the manner of the religion of Juddaism.

Actually, in most cases, they haven't. Read carefully.There's not a Rabbi sitting on the assembly line blessing your Heinz ketchup.

What happens is they have some fella go tour the factory and say what (if anything) needs to be changed about the process of manufacture in order for it to be kosher. If it passes, they give permission to use the logo and then perhaps every so often reinspect.

Billions of dollars. Going to the folks who hide tiny crucifixes in sneakers.

That's how I read all this anyway.

And this is the problem with Chadarnook throwing around the $6 billion figure and the $1 in $30 figure like they actually mean anything.

Gross revenues for kosher certification organizations, taken collectively, are three orders of magnitude lower. And they are operated as nonprofits at that.

 

[TJHairball]

I'm just fascinated by the perception that Jews only make up 2 percent of the population. I'll be verifying that statistic for myself in the next few days.

My check on it is this, but it's always good to read around. That puts it at around 2-3% in general.

But really TJ, if you are interested in what folks who don't believe there was a Holocaust think, I'm loving the chance to find out in a decent and friendly way, actually.

I'll try not to antagonize them too much.

 

[jack]

Clearly Proteon is either confusing me with someone else, or not reading my posts.

Just did a world census search (backed by some large Jewish organization) and the 2% figure is indeed true, at least census wise. My wife points out that at least some jews will not admit to anything in any census, but in general the pattern seems to fit the mold.

Whats funny are the 200 jews supposedly living in Yemen , wonder how they canvassed them?