Understanding Anti-Semitism: Why Do People Dislike Jews?

[jack]

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/centraleurope.htm

 

[jack]

Take the percentages in the first post with the census figures in the second to get the actual number of people by census that were there in 1930.

Where did you get half a million jews in Germany? Wishful thinking?

 

[The Question]

there were 4 million polish jews btw, you forgot them, and probably 3 million in France that you also forgot. Polish deportation was pretty close to 100 percent, as was france. Then there's the millions of soviet jews.

Were the trains running from France into Poland? And where did you get the number for 4 million Polish Jews?

between 11 and 25 million people were killed by the germans between 1937 and 1945, so this is less about the "6 million"

I just want to know where you're getting these numbers -- I've cited my source, and fair is fair.

1935 census estimates around 100 million jews, 35 percent of which lived in the german influence.

If the 1935 census estimated 100 million, then you've already lost 89 million Jews between 1935 and 1938, when the League of Nations census tallied 11 million.

1950 estimates are around 90 million, so you figure that one out.

And the United Nations census of 1947 also estimated roughly 11 million Jews worldwide, so -- it looks like several tens of thousands of Jewish people disappeared for about 9 years and then just reappeared.

God truly does work in mysterious ways, apparently...

 

[jack]

What United Nations census of 1947???? I just put up my numbers

 

[The Question]

Take the percentages in the first post with the census figures in the second to get the actual number of people by census that were there in 1930.

Where did you get half a million jews in Germany? Wishful thinking?

As a matter of fact, no -- I got it from the web site I cited in an earlier post which detailed Jewish emigration from Germany between the years 1933 and 1939. I don't want to have to ask this, but are you thoroughly reading my posts, Jack?

 

[jack]

Yes I am thoroughly reading your posts. Many of your sources have already been debunked though, so you're repeating "known" and "disproved" distortions.

 

[jack]

Leuchter coudn't convince me there was chrome on a chrome trailer hitch though, he's that ignorant when it comes to solid facts and science.

 

[Anubis]

1935 census estimates around 100 million jews, 35 percent of which lived in the german influence.

1950 estimates are around 90 million, so you figure that one out.

I have never seen estimates that high. Jewish Encyclopedia estimates the population at ~11,000,000 at ~1900. It is currently around 13,000,000.

 

[The Question]

Occupational Distribution of the Jewish Population in Various
European Countries During the 1930s

Source. World Jewish Congress Submission to the London Conference on Nazi Gold
Nazi Gold. London: HMSO, 1997, pp. 735-737

In Yugoslavia, where Jews represented 0.5% of the population, its occupational distribution in 1930 was as follows:

Agriculture Handicraft Commerce Liberal Professions White Collar Workers
3% 13% 37% 8% 25%

In Czechoslovakia, where the Jews represented 2.4% of the total population, the percentages of Jews and non-Jews engaged in gainful occupations (without agriculture), were as follows:

Transport and Communication Industry and Handicraft Commerce and Credit Public Service and Liberal Professions Rentiers and Others
Jews
Non-Jews
2.2
6.0
22.2
51.7
46.7
10.1
8.3
6.7
17.8
16.4


Among the Jews in Czechoslovakia, 56.1% were proprietors of business enterprises, independent professionals or persons of independent means, as compared with 32.5% among the non-Jewish population. Among gainfully employed Jews, 20.8% were salaried employees; among non-Jews, 7.8%. Wage earners constituted 23.1% of persons gainfully employed as against 60.1% of non-Jews.

In Hungary the Jews formed about 5.1% of the total population (1930), but constituted different ratios in various economic branches:

Trade and Credit
Industry
Liberal Professions
Independent Workers Employees Physical Workers Independent Workers Office Employees Physical Workers
45.6 47.6 29.1 11 33.4 5.6 26

The occupational distribution of the Jewish and non-Jewish population in 1930 was as follows:

Trade and Credit Public Service and Professions Industry and Handicraft Agriculture
Jews
Non-Jews
44.9
4.5
8.2
4.7
32.0
21.5
2.7
53.5


In Poland where the Jewish population came to 9.8%, the occupational structure of the Jews and non-Jews engaged in gainful occupations in 1931 was as follows:

Crafts and Industry Commerce and Credit Transport and Communication Public Service and Liberal Professions Agriculture
Jews
Non-Jews
42.2
16.9
36.6
3.5
4.5
3.5
6.2
9.3
4.4
67.5


In Romania, where the Jews represented 4.2% of the total population, the professional structure of the Jews and non-Jews engaged in gainful occupations (without agriculture) was as follows:

Industry and Handicraft Credit and Commerce Public Service and Liberal Profession Communication and Transport
Jews
Non-Jews
34.8
47.5
51.5
18.1
2.9
13.4
2.6
10.1


The occupational distribution of the Jewish population in Germany differed considerably from that of the total German population. This is evident from the following figures on the occupational distribution of the Jewish population and the total number of gainfully employed persons as of June 16, 1933.

Agriculture and Forrestry Industry and Handicrafts Commerce and Transportation Public and Private
Percentage of gainfully employed 1.7
23.1
61.3
12.5

Percentage of total gainfully employed 28.9
40.4
18.4
8.4


The social position of the Jews in the various economic branches was also different from that of the total population. Only 16.4% of the total of German gainfully employed persons were independent, but 46% among the Jews. The figures for employees (white collar workers) were 12.5% and 33.5% respectively, and for manual workers 46.3% and 8.7% respectively. The Jews were better represented in the liberal professions than the average population, e.g., while the Jews constituted 0.74% of all gainfully employed persons, their proportion in the total number of physicians, lawyers and notaries public, and dentists was 10.8%, 16.25% and 8.59% respectively.

In Austria out of 191, 481 professing Jews (1934), 176,034 lived in Vienna. Their occupational distribution was as follows:

Industry and Handicraft Commerce and Traffic Public Service and Liberal Professions
Jews
Non-Jews
23.4

48.5
54.5

25.1
20.1

11.1

I'd prefer to see these numbers, frankly, from a source which is not openly seeking reparations. These are also percentages, so let me do a little math and get back to ya on what they actually translate to.

 

[The Question]

Okay, taking a second look -- there's nothing in those numbers which contradicts the number of just over half a million Jewish persons living within Germany's borders in 1933. The closest it even comes to addressing this is to give percentages of Jewish to non-Jewish persons by occupation, not by population, in Germany.

 

[jack]

Exactly. Take 46 percent of the working class population being jewish, and then divide the working class german population by a half to get the working class numbers.

 

[jack]

9 million germans in germany in 1930 right?

 

[The Question]

You really, really must read more carefully, Jack. Take a closer look:

Only 16.4% of the total of German gainfully employed persons were independent, but 46% among the Jews.

This does not mean that 46% of the German working class was comprised of Jewish persons.

 

[jack]

A German Jew was different than a German Aryan? How so? It's very clear that German Jews made up 46.5 percent of the workforce by these figures, NOT the percentage of jews within the total number of jews. That's workforce #'s they are talking about, not population groups. That would mean of the other 15 percent that was german, the total german workforce was another 35 percent of other nationalities.

Interesting to discover in this light that the German economy was driven primarily by a Jewish labor majority.

That means they did most of the work.

 

[The Question]

Jack, this is getting tiresome.

I want you to tell me how

46% among the Jews.

seems to you to indicate that 46% of another group were Jewish.

 

[jack]

Sorry, I'll end the discussion now.

Not interested in tiring or boring you. No hard feelings, but IMHO on this you are off base so, I won't be mentioning it again on this board.

Let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that, ok?

 

[The Question]

Well, okay then. I'd still appreciate an answer to that last question I asked you, but if you're willing to drop it, that's okay by me.

 

[TJHairball]

http://www.ukar.org/tax02.htmlFalse analogy.

No, absolutely apt analogy... and that article cites nothing I haven't already seen.

In fact, it references a very interesting figure - the "kosher" market. That is to say, people who shop for kosher food. Mainly Jews. 8.5 million estimated in 1998, hm?

(That's not total buyers of kosher food, of course.)

Any idea of the revenue stream involved? How much does the Kosher certification cost, anyway? Hm. Let's look online and find people who have asked this question in the past, as you clearly didn't provide any figures...

General Mills

> I just became aware of the kosher foods symbol on products. I was
> wondering how much of this cost, of having a rabbi bless my food, is
> passed on to me? I am not jewish and am curious.

Dear Consumer - Thank you for contacting us at the General Mills
Corporate Web Site. To answer your question, the cost of having a
Rabbi certify our products is less than 1/20,000 of one penny per food
package. It is not expensive, but is a service we provide for a large
number of consumers who choose to keep a Kosher diet.

Thank you for your questions. If there is any other way we can be of
help to you, please let us know!
General Mills Consumer Services

Oh dear.

The OU website, from which most of the information presented thus far is derived, describes a one-time fee, varying mainly by travel expense.

So far absolutely everything I've seen indicates first, that you're not paying anything you'd notice; second, that you can readily avoid buying kosher products; third, that there is no monopoly on even getting kosher certifications... let alone anything else to do with them.

 

[jack]

Jack, this is getting tiresome.

I want you to tell me how



seems to you to indicate that 46% of another group were Jewish.

It doesn't. I'm looking for numbers which, for some inexplicable reason, don't exist. Not only is that frustrating, it's a little creepy to realize that the only real numbers you'll get are neighboring countries' estimates. Everyone else was doing public head counts, why weren't they?

Anyway, Hitler is your smoking gun, there's just no explanation for his public rhetoric, it can't be denied away or explained and he was their leader. His public writings and speeches show how influential and charismatic he really was. Ibm was his biggest benefactor during the war, and America was definitely complicit with a nod and a wink to what was going on with the genocide.

We might continue this discussion when you can prove that Hitler's rhetoric and what actually took place as a result were two different things.

There is a public record, Dan. One that isn't made up.

 

[The Question]

It doesn't. I'm looking for numbers which, for some inexplicable reason, don't exist. Not only is that frustrating, it's a little creepy to realize that the only real numbers you'll get are neighboring countries' estimates. Everyone else was doing public head counts, why weren't they?

Public head counts were done, as previously mentioned, in the League of Nations Census of 1938, and again under the United Nations Census of 1947. Interestingly, though, neither of those matters of public record appears to be available online, so I'm forced to attempt an offline search for them.

Anyway, Hitler is your smoking gun, there's just no explanation for his public rhetoric, it can't be denied away or explained and he was their leader.

Again, though, expressing intent to commit a crime does not by itself prove culpability in that crime, or even that the crime in question was actually committed. If you want to claim that it did in this case, then you need to substantiate your claim.

His public writings and speeches show how influential and charismatic he really was.

But his public writings and speeches (aside from Mein Kampf, which was written before he actually took power) don't explicitly state that the Jewish people was to be targeted for extermination. That by itself is a very serious flaw in your attempts to introduce Hitler's rhetoric as an argument that the Holocaust took place, even leaving aside the purely logical objection.

Ibm was his biggest benefactor during the war, and America was definitely complicit with a nod and a wink to what was going on with the genocide.

And doesn't that strike you as just the least bit unlikely? If IBM and the U.S. at large were complicit a Nazi genocide as they were in the Soviet democide, why put one on trial for war crimes and not the other?

We might continue this discussion when you can prove that Hitler's rhetoric and what actually took place as a result were two different things.

You're still missing the whole Burden of Proof train. You're proposing a connection, and I'm not convinced that there is one.

There is a public record, Dan. One that isn't made up.

Unfortunately, we come back then to the question: If the objective, non-emotionally charged, testable and authenticated evidence bears out the Holocaust story, then why was evidence manipulated, sometimes outright fabricated, and otherwise misrepresented in order to support the story? If the truth supports it, what need was there to lie?

My cable is slow tonight, and I'm going to be away from the computer until Wednesday, but I'm looking forward to seeing some answers to those questions.