Understanding Anti-Semitism: Why Do People Dislike Jews?

[The Question]

One last note:

We might continue this discussion when you can prove that Hitler's rhetoric and what actually took place as a result were two different things.

You're also committing circular logic, here, when you presuppose the Holocaust as a fact and demand an explanation for Hitler's rhetoric in relation to that assumed fact as a means to proving your assumption. That's a no-no.

 

[jack]

You assume my demand is that the story of the Holocaust be accepted as a fact. I didn't have any demands.

Hitler, his regime and his army were sociopathic and psychopathic. It wasn't war they committed, it was murder. It's interesting, (what your rhetoric won't admit) that there was murder, and atrocity. I won't speak for hysterical old jewish PTSD people who were traumatized in the camps and wished their captors worse than dead. It's a well known Jewish golem antithesis. But for you to suppose that because there was distortion as a result of the trauma, the whole of the claim must be ignored is surely just as reactionary as the claim it occurred.

Maybe there's a place in the middle? Anyway, the idea that the Jews were deported out of Germany in WWII isn't supported by evidence anywhere.

Maybe you have some? Aside from what you can only assume as the result of "science gone wrong" as you have put it.

Are there deportation figures, and appropriate immigration figures that back up your assertion?

I look forward to seeing the answer to that when you get back.

Have a safe trip.

 

[Anubis]

No, absolutely apt analogy... and that article cites nothing I haven't already seen.

In fact, it references a very interesting figure - the "kosher" market. That is to say, people who shop for kosher food. Mainly Jews. 8.5 million estimated in 1998, hm?

What a flaccid attempt at twisting facts. You mean to tell me that my kosher chicken soup, my kosher Kosciuszko mustard, and my kosher Heinz ketchup is purchased mostly by 2% of the population of the United States?

(That's not total buyers of kosher food, of course.)

No, that's a tiny portion.

Any idea of the revenue stream involved? How much does the Kosher certification cost, anyway? Hm. Let's look online and find people who have asked this question in the past, as you clearly didn't provide any figures...Oh dear.

The OU website, from which most of the information presented thus far is derived, describes a one-time fee, varying mainly by travel expense.

Heinz Canada trims kosher product line

According to company spokesperson Anna Relyea, the move stemmed from a desire to "keep costs down while continuing to provide kosher products to our customers."

Keep costs down? Strange. I thought the costs were miniscule.

So far absolutely everything I've seen indicates first, that you're not paying anything you'd notice; second, that you can readily avoid buying kosher products; third, that there is no monopoly on even getting kosher certifications... let alone anything else to do with them.

Or I can simply stop eating, or eat just pork. A bum has all the freedom to sleep under a bridge he wants.

But why such modesty from the kosher business? In view of the pervasiveness of kosher-certified products, almost every Canadian and American must consume them, such that the number of "kosher consumers" in Canada and the United States in reality cannot be a mere 8.5 million, but could readily exceed 200 million. Another way of viewing the phenomenon, of course, is that the number of consumers paying the Jewish kosher tax in Canada and the United States, almost all of them unwittingly, exceeds 200 million.

 

[jack]

the organic label costs more, and isnt organic at all, the chemical extenders in most food products, colorings, dyes etc so the fake food will look appetizingly real you pay for unwittingly every day. You pay the exorbitant ad costs to hypnotize you into buying a certain brand from your media input daily, and you pay for that too, unwittingly.

At the very least, the kosher symbols assures a certain level of purity and cleanliness in the production of the food, period. It would have to be the most cost-effective way of guaranteeing the safety of the food in food production.

But really, pulp up some tomatoes and add some sugar, if you really feel that strongly about the .0026 cents per package the purity standards actually cost.

These straw man arguments are strange. You should be more concerned about the shit they put in food to be able to make a profit to mass sell it, rather than something as infinitessimal as the Jew Tax. Tell me you've got a choice or a voice in what they put in what you consume.

 

[The Question]

You assume my demand is that the story of the Holocaust be accepted as a fact. I didn't have any demands.

I assume that you keep asking me to reference the things you bring up to a genocide and attempt to explain how they can prove one didn't happen in that light.

I'm asking you to start with the test-able evidence, and go only as far as it takes you -- no further.

Without assuming a genocide as a foregone conclusion, the objective evidence simply does not lead to one.

Hitler, his regime and his army were sociopathic and psychopathic.

This is an example -- they were only sociopathic and psychopathic if they committed genocide. But you're trying to substantiate the claim that they committed genocide by saying they were sociopathic and psychopathic.

As I said, that's circular logic -- and it's a no-no.

It wasn't war they committed, it was murder. It's interesting, (what your rhetoric won't admit) that there was murder, and atrocity.

I never said there weren't isolated murders and atrocities. I've only said, from the beginning, that there was no genocide.

I won't speak for hysterical old jewish PTSD people who were traumatized in the camps and wished their captors worse than dead. It's a well known Jewish golem antithesis. But for you to suppose that because there was distortion as a result of the trauma, the whole of the claim must be ignored is surely just as reactionary as the claim it occurred.

Not at all -- and I didn't claim (and go on to demonstrate) distortion -- I have shown that there has been outright deception perpetrated by those who promoted (then, and still now) the Holocaust propaganda.

Maybe there's a place in the middle?

Golden Mean fallacy. It either did or didn't happen as we're told. It couldn't have sort of happened the way it's been related, any more than you can flip a switch and sort of turn the light on or off. Some things genuinely are black and white.

Anyway, the idea that the Jews were deported out of Germany in WWII isn't supported by evidence anywhere.

Except by the site I linked to, and the site you linked to, and a whole crapload of (ironically enough) testimony coming from Jewish persons who survived the camps and did not end up back in Germany.

Are there deportation figures, and appropriate immigration figures that back up your assertion?

I provided some, or didn't you look?

Have a safe trip.

Well, it's not a trip, exactly -- just helping some folks out with a test.

 

[The Question]

Another interesting Russian "fact":

Centaurs are real. No, really. :lol:

 

[Anubis]

the organic label costs more, and isnt organic at all, the chemical extenders in most food products, colorings, dyes etc so the fake food will look appetizingly real you pay for unwittingly every day. You pay the exorbitant ad costs to hypnotize you into buying a certain brand from your media input daily, and you pay for that too, unwittingly.

At the very least, the kosher symbols assures a certain level of purity and cleanliness in the production of the food, period. It would have to be the most cost-effective way of guaranteeing the safety of the food in food production.

But really, pulp up some tomatoes and add some sugar, if you really feel that strongly about the .0026 cents per package the purity standards actually cost.

These straw man arguments are strange. You should be more concerned about the shit they put in food to be able to make a profit to mass sell it, rather than something as infinitessimal as the Jew Tax. Tell me you've got a choice or a voice in what they put in what you consume.

We're not talking about additives. And if they didn't add them, I'm sure a Rabbi would be on-site to inspect the organic food, very quickly.

Rather than let this discussion get convoluted, I'll ask you a simple question:

Is the taxation of food by 2% of the population fair?

I believe it isn't. It seems like a simple question. But the answers I get never address the right and wrong. Is the cost miniscule? Is it worse compared to all the other evils in the world? We can discuss them, but they would be irrelevant.

 

[TJHairball]

What a flaccid attempt at twisting facts. You mean to tell me that my kosher chicken soup, my kosher Kosciuszko mustard, and my kosher Heinz ketchup is purchased mostly by 2% of the population of the United States?

No, that roughly 2.8% of the population only buys kosher - by their estimation, anyway.

No, that's a tiny portion.

Do the math. Spend... what, a couple hundred or couple thousand bucks to fly a rabbi in once for every product line, and expand your target demographic substantially?

Keep costs down? Strange. I thought the costs were miniscule.

Everything points to that, yes.

It costs a certain amount to have a rabbi come in and reinspect every time you change the formula or manufacturing process. Unless you can come up with some actual figures, I'm going to assume Heinz trimmed them to save a few thousand dollars here and there.

Or I can simply stop eating, or eat just pork. A bum has all the freedom to sleep under a bridge he wants.

Given that (as I mentioned earlier) a small minority of products are actually kosher, it shouldn't nearly be that hard for you to avoid most kosher products.

Is the taxation of food by 2% of the population fair?

Which makes it a good thing that that's not happening.

Let's face it. There's no significant cost to the consumer resulting from the kosher industry. In business terms, nobody is raking in hideous profits on this racket, and it's all voluntary.

 

[Anubis]

Let's face it. There's no significant cost to the consumer resulting from the kosher industry. In business terms, nobody is raking in hideous profits on this racket, and it's all voluntary.

This is your big defense?

There's no significant cost to the consumer resulting from the kosher industry.

As I've mentioned, significant costs to individual customers are irrelevant.

In business terms, nobody is raking in hideous profits on this racket,

But since you ask for figures, have some:

According to the video, which you likely did not watch, the costs for kosher certification are ~$6 Billion (it had cited a newspaper).

and it's all voluntary.

So is ingesting the carcinogens which are not widely known about in our food. After all, we buy the poison, put it in our mouths and swallow it. It's the cancer victim's own damn stupid, voluntary fault for losing their hair and dying painful deaths.

 

[TJHairball]

But since you ask for figures, have some:

According to the video, which you likely did not watch, the costs for kosher certification are ~$6 Billion (it had cited a newspaper).

I would like to hear which newspaper, when, and over what time period. Are we talking the entire history of kosher certification? Is this a reputable rag? Gross or net? What assumptions factor into this?

So is ingesting the carcinogens which are not widely known about in our food. After all, we buy the poison, put it in our mouths and swallow it. It's the cancer victim's own damn stupid, voluntary fault for losing their hair and dying painful deaths.

And it's right there on the front label? Of course not.

Let's face it. It's not like some foods being certified kosher is a secret, for all the surprise you seem to be claiming, and it's not like you - in any fashion - have to go to specialty stores to avoid kosher materials. (Small-name generics, Chad.)

 

[Anubis]

I would like to hear which newspaper, when, and over what time period. Are we talking the entire history of kosher certification? Is this a reputable rag? Gross or net? What assumptions factor into this?And it's right there on the front label? Of course not.

Ah yes, attack the source and not the facts it provides.

Albuquerque Tribune July 29th, 2002.

According to the video you have yet to watch, the costs are $1 for every $30 spent by consumers, which is one dollar more than I'd like to pay.

The April 25th 2001 issue of the Detroit News reported that:
The Orthodox Union, which uses the (U) symbol, reportedly takes in over $20,000,000 a year.

The eBiz esure reported that the global kosher tax was on $165 billion worth of food, which was up $45 billion the last year (1996)

Cost of plane tickets? :gagh:

Let's face it. It's not like some foods being certified kosher is a secret, for all the surprise you seem to be claiming, and it's not like you - in any fashion - have to go to specialty stores to avoid kosher materials. (Small-name generics, Chad.)

Death by a thousand needles? Hell yes, I'm surprised, and so has everyone I have told of this. I have yet to find a single person who claimed to know of it beforehand.

Now, can you address the moral aspect of this problem?

 

[TJHairball]

Ah yes, attack the source and not the facts it provides.

Albuquerque Tribune July 29th, 2002.

According to the video you have yet to watch, the costs are $1 for every $30 spent by consumers, which is one dollar more than I'd like to pay.

The April 25th 2001 issue of the Detroit News reported that:
The Orthodox Union, which uses the (U) symbol, reportedly takes in over $20,000,000 a year.

The eBiz esure reported that the global kosher tax was on $165 billion worth of food, which was up $45 billion the last year (1996)

Cost of plane tickets?

I want you to take a close look at the consistency of your figures.

The largest by far certifier takes in $20 mil a year, with 400,000 products certified. That's, in other words, $5,000 per year per product according to the Detroit News. Slightly more than I expected, but far from that.

Their website notes that there are nearly 400 certifiers - which would mean that all of them need to take in nearly as much as OU in order to meet your $6 billion figure. That, with nearly half of all certified kosher products I've seen (out of a representative sample) bearing the (U), and OU badmouthing them ever-so-politely by saying that their marks are less recognized (ergo, not worth as much). The Detroit newspaper article cites OU as certifying 75% of all kosher products.

Then you say $1 in $30 spent by consumers... which is not $6 billion either. Consumers in the US spend nearly $700 billion per year on food.

Your figures have serious inconsistency issues.

But here's why. They're coming from different sorts of estimates. $1 in $30 is an estimated cost increase, based out of somebody's estimation of how much cost the different processes (sanitation, slaughtering techniques, documentation of ingredients, and using separate equipment) require vs the cheapest methods to do so, on kosher products. So's the $6 billion.

As to the "Jew Tax" going into the pockets of rabbis? ~$5,000 per year per product for the most widely recognized labels... and almost certainly less than $30 million overall given OU's position in the industry. In a word, not only is this a "tax" you don't have to pay, but it is a small fraction of a cent per can, just as I said - at least for large producers.

$6 billion? Doesn't come from direct measurement, and isn't being paid from any group to any other group.

Death by a thousand needles? Hell yes, I'm surprised, and so has everyone I have told of this. I have yet to find a single person who claimed to know of it beforehand.

Never met a single person who knew WTF a (U) or (K) on the label meant? Chad, ya need to get out more in the world.

Now, can you address the moral aspect of this problem?

What moral aspect? What problem?

There is no problem, Chad, you're trying to make one up where it doesn't exist.

 

[jack]

Straw man arguments usually do.

 

[Anubis]

You asked for figures, and threw some at you. You asked if the paper was a rag, and I pointed the paper out.

Never met a single person who knew WTF a (U) or (K) on the label meant? Chad, ya need to get out more in the world.

Did you know that there is a small minority of people that don't read Hebrew, or are concerned with eating kosher food in order to go to heaven :shock:

What moral aspect? What problem?

There is no problem, Chad, you're trying to make one up where it doesn't exist.

Of course there exists a problem, though it's difficult to explain it when you pull wool over your eyes.

I personally believe that the majority of people are not aware of the tax which does not apply to them. Regardless of it's cost, they are being taxed. All of the people I've informed of this have expressed disagreement with it.


But let's get back to quibbling over figures, shall we? :

Some of the products that gain certification each year are mainstays of the food industry, and their certification adds dollar value to the "mainstream kosher" market while having little overall bearing on product sales themselves. For example, Nabisco Oreo cookies attained kosher certification in 1997, giving the kosher food market a $300 million boost (based on IRI data for sales of Oreos through food, drug, and mass merchandisers, calendar year 1997). However, Oreo cookie sales showed no significant dollar increase between 1996 and 1997.

http://www.ukar.org/martin/martin24.html

The kosher market can be considered as two separate markets: "mainstream and kosher" and "ethnic kosher." The former, "mainstream and kosher products," are those foods that are certified kosher but have little relevance or bearing on traditional kosher foodways. These kosher certified products are as much at home on the shelves of consumers who have no interest in kosher foods as they are on the shelves of those consumers for whom the kosher symbol is important. "Ethnic kosher foods," on the other hand, are products that are "kosher by design"-such items as gefilte fish, matzo, schav and borscht (both types of soup), and other traditional ethnic Jewish food products.

While the "mainstream and kosher" market enjoys more than $100 billion in sales, these sales may not be indicative of the "market" for kosher foods, since a minority of consumers buy these products because they are kosher, but for some other reason. On the other hand, sales of some "ethnic kosher" foods are so low that it is impossible to track them through the usual means (IRI or other scanner services). While ethnic kosher foods may be purchased by any consumer interested in Jewish food traditions, it is undeniable that the major market for these products is the consumer looking for a kosher product. In any case, it is difficult to arrive at a dollar figure that represents the "true" kosher market.

http://www.marketresearch.com/map/prod/862026.html

 

[Anubis]

Straw man arguments usually do.

Oh?

 

[TJHairball]

You asked for figures, and threw some at you. You asked if the paper was a rag, and I pointed the paper out.

All well and proper. Then I dissected your figures, and you pointedly fail to acknowledge that part of my reply.

Did you know that there is a small minority of people that don't read Hebrew, or are concerned with eating kosher food in order to go to heaven.

And he shoots... and it's an air ball, folks.

Chad, your assumption that only Jews would know about this is entirely baseless. Almost anyone remotely curious about what's actually going into their grocery cart knows. I've known for years - and I'm not Jewish, and nor is the rest of my family. Guess what? Most of them have known for years as well. Actually, I suspect all of them know.

The only basis for this strange belief of yours would be an upbringing that avoids the remotest contact with anything Judaic, and incidentally doesn't teach responsible label-examining habits.

Of course there exists a problem, though it's difficult to explain it when you pull wool over your eyes.

I'll ask you what the problem is again.

Let's see... are Rabbis making a killing off making Gentile food kosher? Nope.

I personally believe that the majority of people are not aware of the tax which does not apply to them. Regardless of it's cost, they are being taxed. All of the people I've informed of this have expressed disagreement with it.

"Regardless of the cost."

For now, I believe we can all consider the question of "cost" settled. It's low. Take the roughly $5,000 dollars we expect Oreos to cost to certify in terms of fees paid certification agencies, divide by $300 million. 0.017 cents on the dollar. That's one sixtieth cent on the dollar. You're talking again about gross product revenues - not the "cost of Kosher." It is (a) in no way required and (b) in no way a monopoly.

In the case of a tax, you are required to pay something to a particular someone. This fails to meet that transaction.

 

[jack]

Oh?

Yes Chad, complaints about taxation without representation first off misrepresent an authentic payment for an authentic service. So...labeling it a "tax" is not only incorrect, it's inflammatory. It creates an argument out of nothing. That would make it a Straw Man by definition. It's not a "tax", so define it properly, and we can argue those merits.

If you're saying you're paying for a service you aren't asking for, then it is your civic duty to change all the companies that are paying for the service, because they believe it's in their best interests to pay for the service.

And I want to see these profit statements you're waving about like flags. I want to see this 20 million dollar combined check, rather than "extrapolation of an idea into fact using math".

So yes, Chad..."oh"

 

[jack]

And yes, I read your quotes about Nabisco, Oreo, and the "300 million dollar boost" It's a public record of their expenses, show me the profit loss statement that shows a 300 million dollar payment to the U company in 1997 as a direct result of that certification...because that's what you seem to be suggesting.

It must exist, right?

 

[jack]

I certainly can't seem to find it, and my calls to Nabisco, they assure me that Kosher Certification is a one time fee, to actually have the rabbi come and bless the production that makes the food, and that costs around 5000, the yearly maintainance fee is not based on volume, but is like 1000 per year per product.

That's a pretty far cry from 300 million for just oreos in 1997.

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck...it probably is.

 

[Anubis]

All well and proper. Then I dissected your figures, and you pointedly fail to acknowledge that part of my reply.

I cut and pasted numbers from various timespans. My mistake.

Chad, your assumption that only Jews would know about this is entirely baseless.

I didn't assume that. I know of it, and I'm not Jewish.

Almost anyone remotely curious about what's actually going into their grocery cart knows. I've known for years - and I'm not Jewish, and nor is the rest of my family. Guess what? Most of them have known for years as well. Actually, I suspect all of them know.

The only basis for this knowledge is an upbringing that doesn't avoid the remotest contant with anything Judaic.

The only basis for this strange belief of yours would be an upbringing that avoids the remotest contact with anything Judaic.

It is not the only basis, as that is not the case.

and incidentally doesn't teach responsible label-examining habits.I'll ask you what the problem is again.

Label-examining habits? Do I look like a fucking lawyer that reads fine print? I'm hungry, and I'm not interested in wading through cans of kosher pea soup to find the one that best describes me as a person.

Let's see... are Rabbis making a killing off making Gentile food kosher? Nope.

Gewirtz had some earthly advantages working for him, too. The steel industry could have lost business to plastic makers. "Our customers ... wanted to be sure they were buying steel products from a certified producer," said a Weirton Steel Corp. spokesman. How do steel companies get certified? Easy. Gewirtz and his colleagues formed a nonprofit Maryland company that will charge steelmakers a fee for kosher certification. Gewirtz, who is president, estimates annual revenues of up to $700,000. "Nobody gets rich," he says, and adds that he's reminded of a Talmudic saying: "They who do something for the glory of God find their work being done by angels." But watch your costs anyway.

Newsweek, 23-Mar-1992, p. 49.

The dollar amount mentioned in the Newsweek article suggests that the sums of money involved in kosher accreditation are not nominal. In one year, a single rabbi plus colleagues anticipates extracting $700,000 US from American steelmakers for bestowing on them the right of labelling their steel as kosher. As this rabbi might be expected to under-estimate revenues in order to keep from looking greedy, and in order to not invite a flood of competitors, the true revenues might be expected to be even higher. As the fees can be increased from year to year, and as enterprises other than steel manufacturing can be added to the list of contributors, then one imagines that kosher accreditation is possibly a highly remunerative field.

http://www.ukar.org/tax04.html

"Regardless of the cost."

Now you're learning!

For now, I believe we can all consider the question of "cost" settled.

Nopers.

It's low. Take the roughly $5,000 dollars we expect Oreos to cost to certify in terms of fees paid certification agencies, divide by $300 million. 0.017 cents on the dollar. That's one sixtieth cent on the dollar. You're talking again about gross product revenues - not the "cost of Kosher."

For example, Nabisco Oreo cookies attained kosher certification in 1997, giving the kosher food market a $300 million boost

Sure. If everyone in the US gave me a penny, I would have millions. And I could hide that from the IRS by saying I only recieved pennies.

It is (a) in no way required

Three years ago Gewirtz discovered that container and steelmakers protect their products from corrosion with a lubricant containing a tiny bit of animal fat. When that steel comes in contact with food, it violates Jewish and Muslim food laws that prohibit impure materials. Working in an alliance with Muslims and Seventh-day Adventists (they are vegetarians), Gewirtz lobbied the steel industry.

Newsweek, 23-Mar-1992, p. 49.

I thought the product manufacturers wanted to expand there consumer base a bit with kosher certifications. Why the lobbying? How very odd.

and (b) in no way a monopoly.

Of course it's not a monopoly. There are plenty of Kosher certification companies out there.

In the case of a tax, you are required to pay something to a particular someone. This fails to meet that transaction.

There is a cost added to the brand name products I prefer consuming, which serves no purpose for the majority of the people purchasing said products. It is a tax.

And yes, I read your quotes about Nabisco, Oreo, and the "300 million dollar boost" It's a public record of their expenses, show me the profit loss statement that shows a 300 million dollar payment to the U company in 1997 as a direct result of that certification...because that's what you seem to be suggesting.

Once again:

http://www.marketresearch.com/map/prod/862026.html

Kosher Foods Market - US Report

Published by: Mintel International Group Ltd.

Published: Mar. 1, 2003 - 99 Pages
Table of Contents

"For example, Nabisco Oreo cookies attained kosher certification in 1997, giving the kosher food market a $300 million boost (based on IRI data for sales of Oreos through food, drug, and mass merchandisers, calendar year 1997)."

This is not difficult to understand. They didn't hand out 300 mil. I didn't suggest that, and I don't see how you could have inferred it.

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck...it probably is.

"One reason that the kosher certification business, as it is practiced today, must be stopped is because it is a criminal activity that restrains trade and that sucks vast sums of money out of the economy, money that would be better spent in shortening waiting times for surgery, or in giving small towns safe drinking water, or in raising teacher salaries, or in filling highway potholes.

Another reason that the kosher certification business must be stopped is that its vast revenues can be expected to be invested in still other criminal activities, in corrupting the political and judicial processes, and in suppressing freedom of speech and of the press."

http://www.ukar.org/martin/martin24.html